Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 22, 2024, 09:54:36 AMAre you suggesting Tua didn't see a sizeable bump in his stats with the addition of Tyreek Hill?

It doesn't matter if Tyreek hill and Travis kelce joined the Giants, Jones is not leading the league in passing. To think so is extremely unrealistic given his production to this point.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 22, 2024, 02:34:49 PMIt doesn't matter if Tyreek hill and Travis kelce joined the Giants, Jones is not leading the league in passing. To think so is extremely unrealistic given his production to this point.

That's where we differ.   I consider that Daniel Jones has never had an opportunity to work with a healthy, elite receiver.  So, I consider it illogical to assume I know how that would play out if it did happen.

Quote from: madbadger on April 20, 2024, 02:33:34 PMInterestingly enough I think this is the first time since Eli retired that we might have a line and skill position group that won't hold the quarterback back. Don't get me wrong they're not good enough to win the Super Bowl but it won't be like Jones first four years in the league.

The one mistake they could make is to go all in and move up in the draft because we need each of our picks. IMHO if someone offered us two firsts and a second to trade up with us I'd do it to continue to flesh out our roster hoping to go all in on a guy next year with the additional picks.

agreed. lets continue to get this oline right, and take a top receiever and see how jones does. OR, trade down, again see how the oline does, and if they show improvement and jones stinks again, use the picks next year to move up and get our guy, when we have a better situation. plus it would be much easier to move on from jones next year than this year.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 20, 2024, 07:48:58 PMI understand the point Foxworth is making here, and I know many on this forum share his view, but I just see it differently myself. I think QB is just too important a position in the modern NFL to be messing around with. By that I mean if you're a QB-needy team, and you have an opportunity to get a QB you're very high on, you simply can't pass that up, no matter what the rest of your team looks like. I don't believe any team that is without a good QB has the luxury of doing things in a certain pre-determined order designed to make everything perfect when the new QB arrives. I'd be fine with that approach if I were reasonably confident that I would have a solid chance of getting a very good QB in any draft, as I am with most other positions, no matter where I'm picking, but that just isn't the reality. It's hard enough to get a good QB near the top of the draft. When you're picking say 18th it's just that much harder. If you don't have a good one, and you have one you really believe in in your sights in the draft, you have to pull the trigger there every time in my opinion. If the rest of the offense is so bad that you're worried about it stunting the QB's development or "ruining" him, then you can keep him on ice for a year or two if you want while you make upgrades, but you don't pass up getting him into your organization when you have the opportunity. These opportunities are just too elusive.

As a related point, I found it peculiar that Foxworth brought up three recent history examples of where his point wasn't true. Three is not a small number in this context. There aren't that many great QBs in any given decade. He kind of defeated, or at least significantly weakened, his own point by bringing those guys up.

very true..but also hard to make quality upgrades when you give up high draft capital to make the big move for the qb.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 21, 2024, 07:20:55 AMYou look at the Jags and the Chargers squandering their elite QB prospect cheap rookie years and you have to question the wisdom of grab a QB no matter what

nailed it.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 21, 2024, 01:07:31 PMRich,

I would follow by saying I think the flaw in your assumption is the notion that if a very highly rated QB prospect like Trevor Lawrence is underwhelming in the NFL, it must be because his surrounding cast isn't good enough. I disagree with that. Just because a QB is a top prospect does not mean he will be good in the NFL, and if he isn't, it is not always because he doesn't have enough around him. Some prospects pan out better than others for reasons that extend beyond supporting cast.

The Giants had a bad supporting cast in 2018. If we could go back in time and redo that draft, I think we can agree we wouldn't take Barkley 2nd overall. With the knowledge you have today, whom would you pick if you could redo it? Would you take Josh Allen or Quentin Nelson (or someone else)?

josh allen all day. however...you can argue the bills were/are better at any point since then, than the giants have been at any point since then.

Quote from: Trench on April 21, 2024, 10:13:53 PMAs for the Giants regarding your description above, in my opinion we can also erase the name "Pickens" and insert the name "Jones" in the last paragraph

Jones was one of the toughest competitors i've ever seen. dude took beating after beating and kept going until he was either knocked silly with a concussion, or ripped his leg up. while the results were never there, no one can ever say the dude didnt give it EVERYTHING he had.

Quote from: B1GBLUE on April 22, 2024, 04:39:25 PMvery true..but also hard to make quality upgrades when you give up high draft capital to make the big move for the qb.

I agree with you. There is a difference between giving up a king's ransom to move up when you're bad versus just drafting a QB when you're bad with the pick you have. That is a more than fair and accurate statement. No argument from me on that one. It makes it a harder decision, but, for me at least, it doesn't get me to completely rule out doing it if I have very high conviction on the pick.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 22, 2024, 02:37:05 PMThat's where we differ.   I consider that Daniel Jones has never had an opportunity to work with a healthy, elite receiver.  So, I consider it illogical to assume I know how that would play out if it did happen.

Nor a reasonably competent OL.  It always amuses me when people claim that everything has to be perfect for Jones to be effective when no one has ever seen him with even an average OL/WR combo.

Quote from: B1GBLUE on April 22, 2024, 04:38:18 PMagreed. lets continue to get this oline right,

To be a pedantic twit for a moment, you can't continue something that you haven't started.  The Giants actions with respect to the OL illustrate the difference between effort and work.  Effort expends energy, while work accomplishes something.

I think QBs coming out of college are way more advanced then they use to be
I.remember a very good starting QB said
Playing John Madden taught him more than what college did
I think its easier to see how good he would be after year 3 or 4

Mighty if u are comparing or asking me would I take Herbert over Jones in terms of elevating the team then the answer is a resounding YES!....its not even close.

Too many still believe (after what 5 years) this guy is the next coming....the same people will be up in arms when (after Thursday)
 we draft a new QB and he doesn't have great success before year 3.

MARK MY WORDS PLEASE

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 22, 2024, 02:37:05 PMThat's where we differ.   I consider that Daniel Jones has never had an opportunity to work with a healthy, elite receiver.  So, I consider it illogical to assume I know how that would play out if it did happen.

If he had a "healthy, elite receiver", would he still bird dog him and telegraph where he's going with the ball?

Would he still look for checkdowns when the pressure comes instead of giving his elite receiver an opportunity to catch a contested ball?

Will he still wait until his elite receiver has at least five yards of separation before going deep?

Would he still hear footsteps when he has a clean pocket?

Would he look downfield when the play breaks down to find any open receivers?

Those are my issues with Jones and why I feel we need to move on from him.

Quote from: T200 on April 23, 2024, 08:10:06 AMIf he had a "healthy, elite receiver", would he still bird dog him and telegraph where he's going with the ball?

Would he still look for checkdowns when the pressure comes instead of giving his elite receiver an opportunity to catch a contested ball?

Will he still wait until his elite receiver has at least five yards of separation before going deep?

Would he still hear footsteps when he has a clean pocket?

Would he look downfield when the play breaks down to find any open receivers?

Those are my issues with Jones and why I feel we need to move on from him.

Tim,

How did you determine the faults you claim DJ has?

Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 22, 2024, 09:35:50 PMNor a reasonably competent OL.  It always amuses me when people claim that everything has to be perfect for Jones to be effective when no one has ever seen him with even an average OL/WR combo.

Acknowledging up front that none of us have a crystal ball, what, in your estimation, is Jones's ceiling if he had one elite receiver and a "reasonably competent OL"? Specifically, top 10? Top 5? What's he averaging (yards, TDs, INTs, completion %) over a three-year period with that type of support?

Just curious.

Personally, I see a 5-10% bump above his '22 stats.