Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: T200 on May 01, 2024, 09:27:08 AMI have been saying this every single year Jones has been in the league: he can be evaluated despite what support he has or doesn't have around him. I got a lot of pushback from you and others saying that it was too difficult to evaluate him because of the lack of quality NFL support.

Seems to me the ability to evaluate a player is subjective.

I really had an awakening when I saw DeVito's pocket awareness vs Jones.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 01, 2024, 09:30:59 AMTim,

I think there is a nuance on this issue.  In a dysfunctional environment, every, or nearly every, QB will look bad.   In a poor environment, people should factor in the poor environment (many do not).

More importantly, the ability to properly evaluate a quarterback is really the purview of that quarterback's coaching staff.  As Daboll once said, people don't know the play calls.  An apparent open receiver may be meaningless because they ran the wrong route.   The fact of the matter is that we can get a sense of QB play by watching the games (or better yet, reviewing the all-22 with an informed eye), but no one outside the organization can evaluate with a strong degree of certainty (lacking the play calls and the QB's instructions).

And this is where we have and continue to disagree. No need to rehash it. Just thought it was curious that you said "I believe even with disparate support, we can get a sense of how good another QB is", which is exactly why I and others have been saying.

Quote from: T200 on May 01, 2024, 09:34:42 AMAnd this is where we have and continue to disagree. No need to rehash it. Just thought it was curious that you said "I believe even with disparate support, we can get a sense of how good another QB is", which is exactly why I and others have been saying.

Tim,

You know I choose my words carefully.  Do you think "a sense" is the same as knowing?  When I use the words "a sense," one is less than certain.   When one is less than certain, it should limit the strength of one's statements.   I have always held the position that we can't be certain about DJ being a bust and that there is still some potential (admittedly a bit of a long shot at this point) that he can even prove to be a franchise QB.   

If Jones stinks as he is very likely to do, and JJ goes on to have a great season with Minnesota (as he is also likely to have with Jefferson over there) Schoen's seat gets a little hotter but I'm not sure they fire him.

What's interesting to me is it would almost be a more fireable offense if the Giants won 7-8 games next year than it would be if they won 3.  If they end up with one of the top 2 or 3 picks in the draft next season he can take his QB and the Giants are set for a while (presuming that QB doesn't also stink which if he does he's fired soon anyway) But if they win 7 games and pick around 9 or 10 in the draft and are no longer in a position to take a QB, when he was in prime position to take one this year, and then JJ looks good in Minnesota...that to me is worse. I could see Mara and Co. asking him what the hell are we supposed to do now? And in this scenario... there's not a really good answer to that question.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 01, 2024, 09:38:33 AMTim,

You know I choose my words carefully.  Do you think "a sense" is the same as knowing?  When I use the words "a sense," one is less than certain.   When one is less than certain, it should limit the strength of one's statements.   I have always held the position that we can't be certain about DJ being a bust and that there is still some potential (admittedly a bit of a long shot at this point) that he can even prove to be a franchise QB.   

Speaking strictly about *our* conversations, I never said he was a bust but I also said that he has not shown any traces or tendencies of being a franchise QB. He's the very definition of an average QB who is not capable of putting his team on his back and dragging them to a victory. He can get 7-9 wins but doesn't offer anything to get 12-15. He is a step down from Ryan Tannehill but with legs.

Quote from: T200 on May 01, 2024, 09:48:00 AMSpeaking strictly about *our* conversations, I never said he was a bust but I also said that he has not shown any traces or tendencies of being a franchise QB. He's the very definition of an average QB who is not capable of putting his team on his back and dragging them to a victory. He can get 7-9 wins but doesn't offer anything to get 12-15. He is a step down from Ryan Tannehill but with legs.

I guess that is where we differ.  I see examples of DJs being capable of being franchise QB.  I think his performance against the Vikings and even his record-setting performance against the Cards last season showed that he can be that franchise QB.   Of course, showing flashes and doing it consistently are two separate things.  Everyone sees things a bit differently, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I don't think passing on McCarthy, Penix, or Nix will cost Schoen his job if they perform well in year 1. Of course, their careers are highly unlikely to be defined by their first season in the NFL (whether good or bad)--so firing a GM off such performance would seem equally misguided to me.

Wan'Dale and Hyatt are talented receivers. Slayton is a consummate professional and a good hand. That, in my mind, would have provided a rookie QB a decent enough foundation for their first year. This also ignores entirely the TE position and potential contributions from the new running backs.

Unless Jones plays well enough to prove he is the long-term solution at QB (which I don't even know is possible in light of his health concerns), I don't think it matters. A positive season from Jones would be just that and no more.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 01, 2024, 09:52:58 AMI guess that is where we differ.  I see examples of DJs being capable of being franchise QB.  I think his performance against the Vikings and even his record-setting performance against the Cards last season showed that he can be that franchise QB.   Of course, showing flashes and doing it consistently are two separate things.  Everyone sees things a bit differently, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I think that's the difference between being a franchise QB and not.

Quote from: Gmo11 on May 01, 2024, 09:45:17 AMI could see Mara and Co. asking him what the hell are we supposed to do now? And in this scenario... there's not a really good answer to that question.

That's interesting considering a good portion of our forum routinely insist that the Maras give "you will work to support Daniel Jones" ultimatums to both the head coach and general manager. 

Like.everything it depends
What happens when we draft a rookie QB next year and because of the pieces we put together now that rookie QB does.very good
What rookie would do good without a number 1 WR

Quote from: TONKA56 on May 01, 2024, 09:05:38 AMPainful isn't it?

It certainly is, and largely why I pretty much stay out of the many Daniel Jones debates.

Quote from: T200 on May 01, 2024, 09:27:08 AMI have been saying this every single year Jones has been in the league: he can be evaluated despite what support he has or doesn't have around him. I got a lot of pushback from you and others saying that it was too difficult to evaluate him because of the lack of quality NFL support.

Seems to me the ability to evaluate a player is subjective.

Simply evaluate jones on the clean pocket plays and they exist

-does not take chances down field 
-cannot hit cross routes in stride
-good on hitting passes off the cut
-checks down underneath to his security blanket (maybe why they were comfortable letting him go)

Maybe this can be of some help in answering the question.

I remember a few years ago, Joe Schoen said in an interview that he was persuaded once to pass on a player that he really wanted in the draft, and that player turned out to have an excellent career, and he will never do that again.

JJ, Penix, and Nix were not the QB's he wanted, so he passed on them, and I agree with him. JJ and Nix do not have the arm talent that Daniel Jones possesses, plus all three of them are smaller than he is as well.

WR Malik Nabers is an elite prospect, and if he consistently puts up 1,000-1,500-yard seasons, it won't matter what the other QB's do because they nailed the pick.

Schoen addressed the right side of the offensive line in FA, and they have an elite pass rusher in Burns to go along with Thibodeaux.

If the line holds up, and Nabers is the player who Schoen and Daboll believe he is, Daniel Jones is going to have a big year.

And as Schoen said, Daniel is under contract for three more years, and if he comes through this year, and the Giants start winning again, many fans will be grateful that they stuck with DJ and paired him up with Nabers.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on May 01, 2024, 10:32:20 AMMaybe this can be of some help in answering the question.

I remember a few years ago, Joe Schoen said in an interview that he was persuaded once to pass on a player that he really wanted in the draft, and that player turned out to have an excellent career, and he will never do that again.

JJ, Penix, and Nix were not the QB's he wanted, so he passed on them, and I agree with him. JJ and Nix do not have the arm talent that Daniel Jones possesses, plus all three of them are smaller than he is as well.

WR Malik Nabers is an elite prospect, and if he consistently puts up 1,000-1,500-yard seasons, it won't matter what the other QB's do because they nailed the pick.

Schoen addressed the right side of the offensive line in FA, and they have an elite pass rusher in Burns to go along with Thibodeaux.

If the line holds up, and Nabers is the player who Schoen and Daboll believe he is, Daniel Jones is going to have a big year.

And as Schoen said, Daniel is under contract for three more years, and if he comes through this year, and the Giants start winning again, many fans will be grateful that they stuck with DJ and paired him up with Nabers.

So then what is your baseline expectation for Jones this season?

What will be a good season for you? Is that 4,000 yards 20 tds and 5 int or what?

You obviously think Jones will ascend, so was does that look like in production?

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 01, 2024, 10:41:32 AMSo then what is your baseline expectation for Jones this season?

What will be a good season for you? Is that 4,000 yards 20 tds and 5 int or what?

You obviously think Jones will ascend, so was does that look like in production?

I am not a big fan of just statistical measures to say what is a successful season (as that removes context), but I will offer up what I would consider a successful season by Jones:

1)  No more than two games lost to injury, ideally less

2)  A QB rating of at least 95

3)  A QBR of at least 60

4)  As I mentioned previously, I would like to see his YPA hit 7.0 or better


I am not saying Jones will hit these marks, as I can't predict the future.  I do think there is a reasonable chance he will, but I am not going to go far as to say he is favored to do so.