Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 07, 2024, 07:41:01 PMIs there really that big of a difference in the 28th vs the 32nd to you? 

I understand you were trying to make a point that somehow there was a huge difference in the 28th vs 32nd but there isn't, not enough to jump the stats that much. Even if you want to say they have better wrs which they do, Lock still attacked down the field while Jones did not.

Sure and the difference between the worst WR group and the #7 WR group couldn't have anything to do with it.  Plus, Lock was sacked 6 times in 2 games (3/game) while Jones was sacked 30 times in 5 games (6/game), just to put some context in that 28th to 32nd OL comparison.

Quote from: T200 on May 07, 2024, 10:04:59 PMBob,

The QB order is Jones, Lock, and DeVito. If they made a move for Maye, he'd have to be viewed as the eventual #1. If they liked Maye better than Jones, then, by extension, better than the other two as well.

I don't think they'd make a move to get to a top 3 pick to draft a backup.

Tim: Right, but my point is... it's not conclusive that they are dissing Jones, or even dissatisfied with Jones.

Clearly, a high pick is expected to take over eventually, but it would still be Jones' job to lose (this year).

They paid him a lot of money. The only way they can attempt to get their "money's-worth" is to play him.

Bob

Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 08, 2024, 01:57:41 AMSure and the difference between the worst WR group and the #7 WR group couldn't have anything to do with it.  Plus, Lock was sacked 6 times in 2 games (3/game) while Jones was sacked 30 times in 5 games (6/game), just to put some context in that 28th to 32nd OL comparison.

So that would have been 18 sacks to 30 over a 6 game stretch. If you deduct the sacks that were his fault then they are about even.

The problem is that we are having this conversation at all with Jones making 40 million. I don't think Lock is really any better than Jones but the fact that it is even a conversation should be alarming.

Quote from: Bob In PA on May 08, 2024, 06:31:26 AMTim: Right, but my point is... it's not conclusive that they are dissing Jones, or even dissatisfied with Jones.

Clearly, a high pick is expected to take over eventually, but it's still be Jones' job to lose (this year).

They paid him a lot of money. The only way they can attempt to get their "money's-worth" is to play him.

Bob

Bob,

I agree with you 1000%!

I don't think they were dissing Jones or disappointed in him. The Giants found themselves in a situation where they could potentially significantly upgrade the most important roster spot. You're right - it doesn't mean that he's trash.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 07, 2024, 07:41:01 PMIs there really that big of a difference in the 28th vs the 32nd to you? 

I understand you were trying to make a point that somehow there was a huge difference in the 28th vs 32nd but there isn't, not enough to jump the stats that much. Even if you want to say they have better wrs which they do, Lock still attacked down the field while Jones did not.

Why did you ignore the 7th receiving targets versus the 32nd receiving targets?  Do you think that receivers don't improve a QBs production?  If not, why do you think WRs make so much money?

As to your point, 32nd is unlimited bad.  We have clear stats that show the protection was significantly worse in terms of percent of pressure and time to pressure under Jones, and even with the improvements after Jones, they were still last.  Even adding a healthy Andrew Thomas and Pugh off his coach didn't move the Giants off 32nd in pass protection.

Quote from: Trench on May 07, 2024, 11:26:06 PMShort answer is - no

So why do NFL teams spend so much money on receivers and offensive linemen if things like pass protection and receiving targets don't make a difference?

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 08, 2024, 08:02:23 AMWhy did you ignore the 7th receiving targets versus the 32nd receiving targets?  Do you think that receivers don't improve a QBs production?  If not, why do you think WRs make so much money?

As to your point, 32nd is unlimited bad.  We have clear stats that show the protection was significantly worse in terms of percent of pressure and time to pressure under Jones, and even with the improvements after Jones, they were still last.  Even adding a healthy Andrew Thomas and Pugh off his coach didn't move the Giants off 32nd in pass protection.

So why do NFL teams spend so much money on receivers and offensive linemen if things like pass protection and receiving targets don't make a difference?

I didn't say they don't. A backup or any backup should not look significantly better than your 40 million dollar qb regardless of the circumstances and not one but several backup Qbs did this past season.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 08, 2024, 09:13:17 AMI didn't say they don't. A backup or any backup should not look significantly better than your 40 million dollar qb regardless of the circumstances and not one but several backup Qbs did this past season.

The part in bold is where we see things differently.  I don't do absolutes like "regardless of circumstances". I always factor in circumstances when I evaluate anything in football.  Evaluating without considering circumstances is akin to taking a quote out of context, in my opinion.

Like it or not, our (not one but TWO) backup QBs played markedly better than the 40 million dollar man. People will say that is because we were missing Andrew Thomas. One person doesn't make a team. The argument would hold some weight if not for the fact TWO backups played much much better and even beat an inter division rival.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 08, 2024, 09:16:25 AMThe part in bold is where we see things differently.  I don't do absolutes like "regardless of circumstances". I always factor in circumstances when I evaluate anything in football.  Evaluating without considering circumstances is akin to taking a quote out of context, in my opinion.

@kingm56 just the other day posted multiple examples of Qbs playing at an elite level despite having one of the worst olines in the NFL but we are supposed to give Jones a pass that he looks worse than most of the backups that started at some point last season in the same scenario.

Eli won a super bowl with a horrible offensive line but we can't even expect starter level play out of Jones? Yes the line was bad last year but that doesn't explain the 3 year arc of Jones refusing to throw down the field.

Qbs are supposed to make their team better and Jones has never done that even consistently. Pointing to a half here or a quarter here after 6 years just doesn't cut it.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 08, 2024, 09:37:37 AM@kingm56 just the other day posted multiple examples of Qbs playing at an elite level despite having one of the worst olines in the NFL

Quarterback support is a three-legged stool.  Those legs consist of coaching/scheme, pass protection, and receiving targets.   What exactly do we learn focusing exclusively on a single leg of the stool? 

Quote from: Bob In PA on May 08, 2024, 06:31:26 AMTim: Right, but my point is... it's not conclusive that they are dissing Jones, or even dissatisfied with Jones.

Clearly, a high pick is expected to take over eventually, but it's still be Jones' job to lose (this year).

They paid him a lot of money. The only way they can attempt to get their "money's-worth" is to play him.

Bob

If by they you mean Schoen/Daboll/Mara, and not those here more invested in their petty egos than anything like a rooting interest, then I would agree, Bob, as it is altogether obvious that Daniel Jones will be the Giants starting QB this season and will remain so unless and until they are forced to make a change.

Can you imagine someone compiling a bunch of numbers to try to legitimize his hate while knowing full-well the compelling reasons why the Giants must hope to achieve a thoroughly objective assessment of Daniel Jones's cost/performance at this critical point in his future and theirs? Otherwise, you will have to enlighten me as to how the 3 pages of largely editorial posts thus far have done anything to alter that simple reality?

Cheers!

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 08, 2024, 07:49:08 AMSo that would have been 18 sacks to 30 over a 6 game stretch. If you deduct the sacks that were his fault then they are about even.

The problem is that we are having this conversation at all with Jones making 40 million. I don't think Lock is really any better than Jones but the fact that it is even a conversation should be alarming.

This discussion wouldn't be necessary if every post of yours about DJ didn't reflect your extreme bias.  Like ignoring the difference in sacks rates.  Blaming the sacks on DJ. Ignoring the difference between the 7th ranked WR group and bottom 5 receiver group. 

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 08, 2024, 09:37:37 AM@kingm56 just the other day posted multiple examples of Qbs playing at an elite level despite having one of the worst olines in the NFL but we are supposed to give Jones a pass that he looks worse than most of the backups that started at some point last season in the same scenario.

Eli won a super bowl with a horrible offensive line but we can't even expect starter level play out of Jones? Yes the line was bad last year but that doesn't explain the 3 year arc of Jones refusing to throw down the field.

Qbs are supposed to make their team better and Jones has never done that even consistently. Pointing to a half here or a quarter here after 6 years just doesn't cut it.

Here's another example of your extreme bias.  Those other successful QBs with bad (but nowhere near as bad as the 2023 Giants) OLs had good receivers.  Where's the QB who was successful with BOTH a bad OL AND bad receivers?

Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 08, 2024, 11:57:47 AMThis discussion wouldn't be necessary if every post of yours about DJ didn't reflect your extreme bias.  Like ignoring the difference in sacks rates.  Blaming the sacks on DJ. Ignoring the difference between the 7th ranked WR group and bottom 5 receiver group. 

This board has extreme bias going both ways for and against Jones. It is far from a one way ticket.

And that is ok. We are all just fans.

MacAdoo was itching to get Geno playing over Eli so anything can happen when you are not the regime that drafted said QB.

Apart from that, I think DJ would beat out Lock if they are on level playing ground.