Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: todge on May 29, 2024, 05:33:56 PMJones did not have five years of failure. He had a stellar rookie season throwing for 23 TDs and rose to 5th in the league in QBR until his offense disintegrated around him. In 2022, he led his team to a road playoff victory. The other years were marred by injuries as well as pathetic OL play and a very mediocre WR crew.


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Roughly where would you rank Jones among NFL starters right now, assuming you're ranking everyone in a vacuum and just going off of pure ability/talent?

Championships are a team accomplishment.

Quote from: Ed Vette on May 30, 2024, 05:50:42 AMChampionships are a team accomplishment.

Statistics are for losers

The only one that counts is wins vs losses

Also we seem to be wearing out Jaime Gillian's right leg

Lots of 3 and outs.  I'd love to see punt vs punt and time of possession stats for the jones years

It seemed Devito and Taylor moved the same team better

I don't think there is a lot of trade demand for Jones.  Whereas Taylor and DeVito did/will have no shortage of takers

Hopefully this is the make or break jones year

If he fails again there has to be a change

Quote from: BluesCruz on May 30, 2024, 08:41:50 AMStatistics are for losers

The only one that counts is wins vs losses

Also we seem to be wearing out Jaime Gillian's right leg

Lots of 3 and outs.  I'd love to see punt vs punt and time of possession stats for the jones years

It seemed Devito and Taylor moved the same team better

I don't think there is a lot of trade demand for Jones.  Whereas Taylor and DeVito did/will have no shortage of takers

Hopefully this is the make or break jones year

If he fails again there has to be a change

Cognitive bias is for losers. Put Eli Manning in the same situation that Jones has had to face from that age in his first 60 games and he might very well fair just as worse. When the Oline was bad for Eli in 2013 he struggled until Gilbride changed the Offense. That was after 9 years of experience. As for Championships, it remains to be seen with DJ.

Manning also had 14 more total turnovers than Jones his first 4 years, in fewer games.

This has been a very bad team during the time Daniel Jones has been under center, except in 2022 when the Defense was fantastic as the Giants won six of their first seven to later make the playoffs. Daniel Jones was the reason they won the playoff game on the road in Minnesota, playing a near perfect game and leading the team in rushing and passing.  Unfortunately many fans had already decided in the back half of the season that he wasn't the guy. Daboll seems to think otherwise.

The stats do lie though. Phil Simms would often say the stats in the NFL lie and the QBs get too much credit and too much blame for winning and losing. Manning could look lost, confused - even pathetic at times and then suddenly he would figure some things out and make every play necessary to beat teams. We all saw it. All of it. Jones hasn't taken that step yet in my opinion. Unlike others, I think he can and will.

Quote from: bamagiantfan on May 30, 2024, 10:40:14 AMThe stats do lie though. Phil Simms would often say the stats in the NFL lie and the QBs get too much credit and too much blame for winning and losing. Manning could look lost, confused - even pathetic at times and then suddenly he would figure some things out and make every play necessary to beat teams. We all saw it. All of it. Jones hasn't taken that step yet in my opinion. Unlike others, I think he can and will.

I think it all boils down to his explosives/big time throws. If he can elevate his game to even 15th in Explosives and BTTR this season we could really do some things.

Jones isn't a bad qb, and he's not a great one either but he could be good enough which is all we really need currently.

Quote from: BluesCruz on May 30, 2024, 08:41:50 AMStatistics are for losers

The only one that counts is wins vs losses

Also we seem to be wearing out Jaime Gillian's right leg

Lots of 3 and outs.  I'd love to see punt vs punt and time of possession stats for the jones years

It seemed Devito and Taylor moved the same team better

I don't think there is a lot of trade demand for Jones.  Whereas Taylor and DeVito did/will have no shortage of takers

Hopefully this is the make or break jones year

If he fails again there has to be a change

It wasn't the same team. The key was the early loss of Thomas due to a hamstring. His replacement Ezeudu was totally overmatched. It was also the debut of a rookie C. The level of competition was also a huge difference the first six games. Jones had less than 2 seconds on average to throw the ball before there was a jailbreak into the backfield. Even Aikman commented that DJ didn't have a chance. Later on the addition of Pugh and the return of Thomas stabilized the OL somewhat.

If DeVito and Taylor moved the team better as you claim, then why isn't Taylor starting this year? DeVito is hanging onto a roster spot by a shoelace. DeVito was ultimately benched in the Saints game because he was woefully unprepared - he was far more interested in signing autographs than spending time in the QB room.

Your last take that Taylor and DeVito are more in demand than Jones is a total head scratcher. As is your inference that both QBs are better than Jones.

Jones isn't being traded under any circumstances. So I'm pretty sure you can abandon that hope. This is and always will be a team game and a QB needs protection and weapons to thrive. Give those to Jones and you will see success.


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Quote from: BluesCruz on Today at 07:41:50 AM
Statistics are for losers

The only one that counts is wins vs losses

Also we seem to be wearing out Jaime Gillian's right leg

Lots of 3 and outs.  I'd love to see punt vs punt and time of possession stats for the jones years

It seemed Devito and Taylor moved the same team better

I don't think there is a lot of trade demand for Jones.  Whereas Taylor and DeVito did/will have no shortage of takers

Hopefully this is the make or break jones year

If he fails again there has to be a change


Speak for yourself, Friend. Of course, I suppose it might be thought that only reason the League bothers to accumulate all those silly numbers for losers is to keep our hands from playing in the Devil's Workshop. Naturally, a speed reader like you would simply skip to the final W/L as soon as you know what it is and assuming no one else does-"spoiler alert"

Still, if you don't mind joining in a "flight of fancy", it is kinda interesting to compare the career W/Ls among Eli, Tyrod, and DeVito simply because they share .500 in common:

      W-L    Cmpl%  Rating
Eli-  117-117  60.3  84.1
Tyrod- 28-28  61.7  88.3
DeVito-  3-3   64.0  89.2

I am not suggesting that we should infer anything from involving such a desperate number of career starts except to wonder whether, if under more equal circumstances, chance, and chances, Tyrod or Tommy could ever be capable of matching Eli's- unimaginable at those times- Super Bowl successes?

So much for what any of us may predict, project, imply, or infer except for the obvious blue truth that this 2024 season is Daniel Jones's "make or break".

Cheers!
 

Quote from: bamagiantfan on May 30, 2024, 10:40:14 AMThe stats do lie though. Phil Simms would often say the stats in the NFL lie and the QBs get too much credit and too much blame for winning and losing. Manning could look lost, confused - even pathetic at times and then suddenly he would figure some things out and make every play necessary to beat teams. We all saw it. All of it. Jones hasn't taken that step yet in my opinion. Unlike others, I think he can and will.

Where's the stat line for heart and cojones? 

When the pressure's on and they needed a score, Eli didn't check down. Just sayin'

Quote from: todge on May 30, 2024, 01:27:28 PMIt wasn't the same team. The key was the early loss of Thomas due to a hamstring. His replacement Ezeudu was totally overmatched. It was also the debut of a rookie C. The level of competition was also a huge difference the first six games. Jones had less than 2 seconds on average to throw the ball before there was a jailbreak into the backfield. Even Aikman commented that DJ didn't have a chance. Later on the addition of Pugh and the return of Thomas stabilized the OL somewhat.

If DeVito and Taylor moved the team better as you claim, then why isn't Taylor starting this year? DeVito is hanging onto a roster spot by a shoelace. DeVito was ultimately benched in the Saints game because he was woefully unprepared - he was far more interested in signing autographs than spending time in the QB room.

Your last take that Taylor and DeVito are more in demand than Jones is a total head scratcher. As is your inference that both QBs are better than Jones.

Jones isn't being traded under any circumstances. So I'm pretty sure you can abandon that hope. This is and always will be a team game and a QB needs protection and weapons to thrive. Give those to Jones and you will see success.


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Taylor wasn't resigned because he went elsewhere for more money. He is being paid as the top backup Qb in the league for a reason.  His Big Time Throw rate was tops in the league last year and his adjusted EPA was top 15. He also threw the ball and connected deep almost 3 times the rate of Jones or Devito.

Was Taylor's play elite, no it wasn't but his play was significantly better than anything else we saw last year.

I would be over the moon if Jones replicated Taylor's stats/production last year over the course of this upcoming season.

In 1984 Bill Parcells said "if I'm gonna lose, [at least] I'm not gonna lose with those same guys." He was explaining why he'd added 20 new players to the roster and given the starting QB job to Phil Simms over Scott Brunner, who was traded away in the spring.

In his second year Parcells had already identified the guys who were most conspicuous in losing us games and moved on from them. He'd spent 1983 trying to be a conventional coach--an organization guy, the Maras' guy--and when it didn't work, he adjusted quickly.

It's time for Brian Daboll to make a similar adjustment: stop clinging to the starter John Mara likes and make a change. That way, if we lose again in '24, at least it won't be with the same quarterback who is already shell-shocked from all the sacks he's taken.

Am I making sense here? We seem to be trapped in an endless cycle of arguing over who is to blame for Daniel Jones' struggles. But eventually we reach a point where it doesn't matter whose fault it is that Jones is failing; what matters is that he is failing, that the failures make him an albatross around the team's collective neck, and the coach needs to change things up.

So while I don't expect Daboll to trade Jones or even give someone else the starting job, it will be an incredible relief if he does. And it will inspire within me a little more confidence in his leadership.

He's the best option starting out(DJ)...whether that really matters. The honeymoon is long over and is the guy by default paid big bucks.

If it goes south early, Giants have to be worried about his injury settlement, of course.

Aside from meandering all over the place, some of the dark corridors of logic included, is this not same old, same old palaver about a single issue, a single question which is simply whether or not Daniel Jones will be the Giants Quarterback next year in 2025? Beyond that, all speculation is bootless and nothing more than an exposition of bias, personal conceit, or both. Ne c'est pas?

Cheers!

Quote from: y_so_blu on May 30, 2024, 03:43:20 PMIn 1984 Bill Parcells said "if I'm gonna lose, [at least] I'm not gonna lose with those same guys." He was explaining why he'd added 20 new players to the roster and given the starting QB job to Phil Simms over Scott Brunner, who was traded away in the spring.

In his second year Parcells had already identified the guys who were most conspicuous in losing us games and moved on from them. He'd spent 1983 trying to be a conventional coach--an organization guy, the Maras' guy--and when it didn't work, he adjusted quickly.

It's time for Brian Daboll to make a similar adjustment: stop clinging to the starter John Mara likes and make a change. That way, if we lose again in '24, at least it won't be with the same quarterback who is already shell-shocked from all the sacks he's taken.

Am I making sense here? We seem to be trapped in an endless cycle of arguing over who is to blame for Daniel Jones' struggles. But eventually we reach a point where it doesn't matter whose fault it is that Jones is failing; what matters is that he is failing, that the failures make him an albatross around the team's collective neck, and the coach needs to change things up.

So while I don't expect Daboll to trade Jones or even give someone else the starting job, it will be an incredible relief if he does. And it will inspire within me a little more confidence in his leadership.

So, let me get this straight, you are advocating for Daboll and Schoen to trade Daniel Jones, their starting QB right now. Okay, so quick question for you, who are they going to trade him too? And what player are they going to get in return?

Secondly, you claim Daniel Jones is a failure. May I ask a question then? In 2022 when the Giants made the playoffs and won a game, with Daniel Jones as the starting QB, were you advocating back then that he was an albatross and a failure?

Just curious?