Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: ralphpal1 on June 13, 2024, 03:11:44 PMCJ Shourd line was also bad
Did the WRs step up?
It seems that was but it was also having CJ as the QB
There is nothing the Giants are able to do
Let D Jones be the QB
But tell.him
You want him to throw it 7 times a game downfield.no matter what

PFF had the Texan's line ranked 15th overall by the end of the season

15. HOUSTON TEXANS
Best lineup:
LT Laremy Tunsil
LG Kendrick Green
C Jarrett Patterson
RG Shaq Mason
RT George Fant

The Texans' offensive line defied expectations to open the campaign, but injuries caught up to the group. Fourteen different offensive linemen saw snaps this season, and 10 logged at least 200 snaps.
Over the first 11 weeks of the season, Houston's front five allowed 92 total pressures and ranked fourth in pass-blocking efficiency rating.
Best player: Laremy Tunsil
While Tunsil does not necessarily stand out in run blocking, this was another elite season for him in pass protection. His 85.4 pass-blocking grade ranked second among offensive tackles during the regular season.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2023-nfl-offensive-line-rankings

Interestingly the Giants managed, by the end of the season, to claw their way from dead last to 30th (Thomas returning likely helped)


30. NEW YORK GIANTS
Best lineup:
LT Andrew Thomas
LG Marcus McKethan
C John Michael Schmitz Jr.
RG Mark Glowinski
RT Tyre Phillips

Aside from Andrew Thomas, no Giants offensive lineman earned a PFF overall grade above 65.0.
Perhaps the most worrying part for Giants fans is the lack of development from second-year right tackle Evan Neal, who earned a 42.1 overall grade this season.
Best player: Andrew Thomas
Thomas was comfortably the Giants' best offensive lineman this season, and his absence was noticeable when he missed time due to injury.

I hope they resign Phillips when healthy, he's a solid depth pieces that they never should have cut last season.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 13, 2024, 04:12:45 PMI hope they resign Phillips when healthy, he's a solid depth pieces that they never should have cut last season.

I heard somewhere that he will not be ready until November

Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 12, 2024, 03:20:12 PMJones average time to throw was not any worse than most other teams. Yes the offensive line needs some significant work but so does Jones. Normally you would give some leeway to the time to throw average because some of it could be a Qb going deep, but Jones never goes deep so his time to throw has been about league average. In fact since Jones was drafted he has never even thrown half of his passes under 2.5 seconds.

So yes the offensive line needs work obviously but so does Jones on his downfield passes, and reading defenses.

Per Warren Sharp
the easiest time to pass the ball is on 1st down. Daniel Jones ranked #48 of 48 QBs on 1st down efficiency (min 100 att in 2023) just 30% of att were successful
NFL avg is 46%. Even if you remove the sacks he's 47 out of 48.

Graph shows time to throw and accuracy.

So yes the oline needs work, but so does Jones. It's not a playcalling issue as Devito and Taylor went deep significantly more than Jones. So Jones needs work post snap reading defenses, and progressions.

The level of competition and the offensive line was much different for DJ than it was for DeVito. Thomas was out and Ezedeu was thoroughly abused. Bredeson was horrific and was ultimately replaced by Pugh. I assumed you watched the games. So you must have seen that Jones barely got the snap before being hit, hurried, harassed and sacked. That's been stated many times yet you persist in your insistence that Taylor and DeVito are better QBs than Jones is.


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Quote from: todge on June 13, 2024, 05:01:56 PMThe level of competition and the offensive line was much different for DJ than it was for DeVito. Thomas was out and Ezedeu was thoroughly abused. Bredeson was horrific and was ultimately replaced by Pugh. I assumed you watched the games. So you must have seen that Jones barely got the snap before being hit, hurried, harassed and sacked. That's been stated many times yet you persist in your insistence that Taylor and DeVito are better QBs than Jones is.


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I didn't say either was better than Jones, infact I've never said that ever so you must have me confused with someone else.

Nowhere in that statement did I say they were better, I said that threw the ball deeper, with a lot more consistently than Jones. It was a point of reference for how little Jones went deep despite similar circumstances. Taylor led the league in big time throw rate despite what was around him. Jones is a better athlete I don't think anyone questions that. He however can't figure out defenses, or progressions at a fast enough rate to be a + starter.

He needs to take significant strides this year in moving the ball downfield which should be obvious for most fans and analysts alike. The offensive line also needs to be significantly better, both things can be true at the same time.

Jones needs to practice accurate long balls with air under them....his line drive only approach causes him to wait too long for the opening he can drill it into

BIG PROBLEM

Quote from: todge on June 13, 2024, 05:01:56 PMThe level of competition and the offensive line was much different for DJ than it was for DeVito. Thomas was out and Ezedeu was thoroughly abused. Bredeson was horrific and was ultimately replaced by Pugh. I assumed you watched the games. So you must have seen that Jones barely got the snap before being hit, hurried, harassed and sacked. That's been stated many times yet you persist in your insistence that Taylor and DeVito are better QBs than Jones is.


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Fact of matter is no matter how we slice it, Jones had so many opportunities that he missed. It was discussed here and shown in video clips ad nauseam yet still people made excuses.

He stunk last year. Absolute horrific and it started with Dallas and he never got better. Backups went in and moved the ball and injected life. Those are facts. Yeah Thomas was in and out but one man doesn't make a team.

Full disclosure, hopefully it clicks for Jones this year and we can all take our licks for not having enough patience. I'll be first on line. Unfortunately I don't have much confidence simply because he rarely if ever practices looking off the DBs. The entire league knows this. I anticipate his interceptions will go WAY WAY up this year BECAUSE of this. Yet guys here will say "everyone wanted him to take chances and this is part of it"

He's our QB and nobody will root harder for his success than me. I hope he becomes All-Pro. 

Quote from: Trench on June 14, 2024, 09:14:28 AMFact of matter is no matter how we slice it, Jones had so many opportunities that he missed. It was discussed here and shown in video clips ad nauseam yet still people made excuses.
 

What is actually a fact, is that the head coach has called out the claims you say are "fact" as not being accurate.  While a person can point to an open receiver, what the head coach made very clear to Bob Papa is that often the "open" receiver ran a wrong route so he is not where the QB expects him to be.

We know the head coach has faulted the armchair film analysts, but you still cite the disputed data and accuse those who listen to what the head coach has said of "making excuses."

Look, I don't consider it a badge of honor or shame to be right in one's predictions about Daniel Jones.  What is important to me is being right in assessments of him and interpreting the available information in as fair a manner as possible.  I think to do that, one really can't have a pre-determined position that can be right or wrong as that introduces possible bias in how we see things.

Quote from: MightyGiants on June 14, 2024, 09:52:40 AMWhat is actually a fact, is that the head coach has called out the claims you say are "fact" as not being accurate.  While a person can point to an open receiver, what the head coach made very clear to Bob Papa is that often the "open" receiver ran a wrong route so he is not where the QB expects him to be.

We know the head coach has faulted the armchair film analysts, but you still cite the disputed data and accuse those who listen to what the head coach has said of "making excuses."

Look, I don't consider it a badge of honor or shame to be right in one's predictions about Daniel Jones.  What is important to me is being right in assessments of him and interpreting the available information in as fair a manner as possible.  I think to do that, one really can't have a pre-determined position that can be right or wrong as that introduces possible bias in how we see things.

The head coach is fighting for his job what the heck would u expect him to say?...and further it is a fact that our backups played better than Jones. Even beat the Eagles! Those are undisputed facts.

Quote from: Trench on June 14, 2024, 10:45:44 AMThe head coach is fighting for his job what the heck would u expect him to say?...and further it is a fact that our backups played better than Jones. Even beat the Eagles! Those are undisputed facts.

This was a private conversation between Bob Papa and Brian Daboll.  It wasn't a press conference or something where Daboll needed to stretch the truth or lie to try and protect his job.  I will share this with you.  I presented you with evidence that should be used to evaluate Daniel Jones.  Instead of taking that evidence and using it to evaluate, you went out of your way to dismiss it.   Not only did you dismiss it, you scrambled to find something negative to say about Jones.   Even the "fact" you added, was incomplete since you failed to consider the different conditions the three QBs played under.  If you are going to look at QB performance, how could you not put it in context?  Here is but one very important context to consider-  How quickly and how often did each of the QBs face pressure





One look at the chart, and I can't see how you could make the claim that it was a fact that the backups played better than Jones.  Jones was pressured much faster and more often than the backups.  So what exactly does your "fact" prove other than that a quarterback who is heavily and quickly pressured will struggle 100% of the time?

Look, I don't know how DJ's career with the Giants will eventually play out.  I am not a fortune teller, and there are far too many variables (both with Jones and the team), but I think, as fans, we should try to be fair and open-minded in our assessments of the man.  It certainly doesn't cost us anything to do so, and considering how hard the guy works for the team and for us, it seems it's the least we can do.

Quote from: MightyGiants on June 14, 2024, 11:05:35 AMThis was a private conversation between Bob Papa and Brian Daboll.  It wasn't a press conference or something where Daboll needed to stretch the truth or lie to try and protect his job.  I will share this with you.  I presented you with evidence that should be used to evaluate Daniel Jones.  Instead of taking that evidence and using it to evaluate, you went out of your way to dismiss it.   Not only did you dismiss it, you scrambled to find something negative to say about Jones.   Even the "fact" you added, was incomplete since you failed to consider the different conditions the three QBs played under.  If you are going to look at QB performance, how could you not put it in context?  Here is but one very important context to consider-  How quickly and how often did each of the QBs face pressure





One look at the chart, and I can't see how you could make the claim that it was a fact that the backups played better than Jones.  Jones was pressured much faster and more often than the backups.  So what exactly does your "fact" prove other than that a quarterback who is heavily and quickly pressured will struggle 100% of the time?

Look, I don't know how DJ's career with the Giants will eventually play out.  I am not a fortune teller, and there are far too many variables (both with Jones and the team), but I think, as fans, we should try to be fair and open-minded in our assessments of the man.  It certainly doesn't cost us anything to do so, and considering how hard the guy works for the team and for us, it seems it's the least we can do.

We agree to disagree. Let's leave it at that.

I'm rooting for him to be an All-Pro. Would love nothing more. Stats can be construed many ways as Ed pointed out regarding Jones vs Trevor.

I could be wrong on this but my opinion is "time to throw" could be skewed for instance:

If a QB has a few good throws, especially early in game....the defense sometimes seems to soften because they don't take as many chances for fear of being "burned"....that could be another factor as to why our backups had more success moving the ball downfield/time to throw because they showed ability to throw the thing downfield in chunks

Quote from: Trench on June 14, 2024, 11:13:59 AMWe agree to disagree. Let's leave it at that.

I'm rooting for him to be an All-Pro. Would love nothing more. Stats can be construed many ways as Ed pointed out regarding Jones vs Trevor.

Rooting-  the act of cheering on or supporting a person or team

I would suggest you are more "challenging" Jones.  You would like him to do well, but you are determined not to give him the benefit of the doubt.  As you have repeatedly said, you are challenging him to prove you wrong (which you have made a very high bar).

As for stats, there are many ways to be construed, but the reality is there is usually only one that is correct or at least most accurate.  You mentioned Ed and the stats comparing DJ with Lawerence.  I hope you saw my post where I drilled down and showed the most accurate picture possible.  Stats can be powerful tools to help us better learn and understand situations, or they can be used selectively to create false impressions.  We should all strive for the former rather than the latter

Still, as you said, we can agree to disagree. You have your opinions, and I have mine.  It's okay if they don't align. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on June 14, 2024, 11:26:22 AMRooting-  the act of cheering on or supporting a person or team

I would suggest you are more "challenging" Jones.  You would like him to do well, but you are determined not to give him the benefit of the doubt.  As you have repeatedly said, you are challenging him to prove you wrong (which you have made a very high bar).

As for stats, there are many ways to be construed, but the reality is there is usually only one that is correct or at least most accurate.  You mentioned Ed and the stats comparing DJ with Lawerence.  I hope you saw my post where I drilled down and showed the most accurate picture possible.  Stats can be powerful tools to help us better learn and understand situations, or they can be used selectively to create false impressions.  We should all strive for the former rather than the latter

Still, as you said, we can agree to disagree. You have your opinions, and I have mine.  It's okay if they don't align. 

I am challenging. And I'm proud of it. No participation trophies. That's the way I root for my teams. Expectations always high - just like Al Davis and George Steinbrenner. Both of them consistently blasted their star players but it never meant the didn't "cheer" for them as well.

Quote from: Trench on June 14, 2024, 11:18:32 AMI could be wrong on this but my opinion is "time to throw" could be skewed for instance:

If a QB has a few good throws, especially early in game....the defense sometimes seems to soften because they don't take as many chances for fear of being "burned"....that could be another factor as to why our backups had more success moving the ball downfield/time to throw because they showed ability to throw the thing downfield in chunks

When defenses are getting to the QB more than half the time in around 2.3 seconds it's not on the QB