Big Blue Huddle

What are you expecting from Kayvon Thibodeaux in 2024? What do you think his season will look like? Will it be materially different from 2023? If so, how exactly?

I really don't know.  On the one hand we have two seasons and have a feel for him (a solid edge but not living up to his draft status).  On the other hand, Wink's system wasn't friendly to edge players.  Thibs might get a boost from Bowen being the DC

Quote from: MightyGiants on June 14, 2024, 08:07:00 PMI really don't know.  On the one hand we have two seasons and have a feel for him (a solid edge but not living up to his draft status).  On the other hand, Wink's system wasn't friendly to edge players.  Thibs might get a boost from Bowen being the DC

Burns lining up opposite from him should be a boon.

I'm not going to put numbers on my answer. I want Thibs to be more of an every drive presence than he was last year. I think year two was a nice step forward, and no doubt he had a few pretty impressive games, but I want to feel him out there more consistently this year.

If we're talking purely stats, I'd like to see a few more TFLs besides sacks than he had last year and more solo tackles overall. If he does what I indicated in the first paragraph, I think you'll see these types of numbers increase for him.

I agree with Mad's comment that Burns' presence should be a boon.

Winks Edge players have always been at a disadvantage.

I think he burst onto the national level with 15+ sacks but more importantly his pass rush win rate jumps up a good amount.

If he has a breakout year (which I fully expect because he looked lost dropping back in coverage so many times last year)....then what does it say about Wink?

Quote from: madbadger on June 14, 2024, 08:44:33 PMBurns lining up opposite from him should be a boon.

Good comment.  From what I have seen, Burns seems to be firing up Thibs off the field as well as offering a threat on the opposite side that will limit how much blocking can focus on Thibs.

I think he will have a breakout year. Not only because of the presence of Burns on the other side (which is huge), and Dex requiring double/triple teams, it's his attitude. Since day 1, he has been determined to show everyone he should have been the first pick off the board. He has steadily improved his moves, his physical abilities, strength, etc., and managed 11½ sacks last year at 22 yrs old, and spending more time falling back in coverage than going on attack. He has studied his role the way a nuclear scientist studies physics, with a desire to understand every nuance of game strategy. He is never satisfied with where he's at. His mentality is that he wants to be the biggest star on the team and in New York - because of his play, not because of side hobbies or playing up to the media. He is quietly driven...something money can't buy. He has taken the lesson of "how to be a pro", hook, line, and sinker and applied it to the way he carries himself and is "all business", not allowing any side distractions. He has become the pre-eminent professional

If he is deployed the way I think he will be (asked to get into the backfield high majority of plays) I think his pass rush will ne more effective but he may get exposed in the run game.

I agree, he'll be a true weapon, to the degree of being Osi like. I also think we see lots of attention grabbing moments he will surely take advantage of and I suspect he has been practicing a variety of dance moves. Burns signing is going to be the best thing that ever happened for him.

My expectation is that he continues to develop as a more complete player - not just strip sacks but running down QBs or RBs frim behind, not getting washed out on so many plays from blockers.  I hope to see relevancy throughout the game not just in a few plays — doing it in tiny ways.

He has the capacity for greatness.

His tackling needs attention, and perhaps some more upper body strength but he is on the verge of great things IMHO

As I recall Strahan took a while to mature into the Pro Bowl level player he became. I wonder if they speak to each other on a regular basis

I'm expecting big things.

If you go back to his Oregon days which made him a top 5 pick, he was playing a 43 RDE role. Hand in the dirt pass rusher.

Then he gets drafted into Wink's whacky scheme (a "positionless" defense) where he's just an "O" filling a gap.

He was never good value for Wink's scheme. It's no secret the Giants wanted Sauce Gardner, with the amount of cover 0 Wink plays. When they couldn't get Sauce, they pivoted to Thibs - but ER's are not prioritized in his scheme so he wasn't able to showcase his special ability. How many times did we see him dropping into coverage, working out of a 2 pt. stance, taking an exaggerated looping rush to contain the QB etc.? Wink's pressures are manufactured and he can use anybody to do it.

If you notice, Wink talked up Thibs after he was drafted, but Schoen mentioned one of the things he learned from Parcells in Miami was not drafting scheme-specific players. (Because schemes change.) Knowing what we know of Wink & Schoen now, the Thibs pick seems like Schoen sticking to positional value at 5, and ignoring the lack of mesh with Wink's philosophy. They were quick to "throw Wink a bone" next draft and use the #1 on Deonte Banks.

Summary: The Giants haven't optimized the value out of that #5 overall pick, but they might now, with Bowen's more traditional approach. The front 4 will be expected to provide the pass rush, and Thibs will be attacking off the edge like a DE. Wink's scheme is player-simple and requires no thinking. Thibs is a cerebral, creative football player who I think will thrive in a more cerebral scheme.

Okereke and Burns talked about this recently. The Giants have some high IQ players on D, particularly in the front 7. Dexter. Thibs. Burns. Okereke. Even Simmons. Let these guys use their instincts and ability to breakdown their opponent a little bit more.

Quote from: 4 Aces on June 15, 2024, 10:43:54 AMI'm expecting big things.

If you go back to his Oregon days which made him a top 5 pick, he was playing a 43 RDE role. Hand in the dirt pass rusher.

Then he gets drafted into Wink's whacky scheme (a "positionless" defense) where he's just an "O" filling a gap.

He was never good value for Wink's scheme. It's no secret the Giants wanted Sauce Gardner, with the amount of cover 0 Wink plays. When they couldn't get Sauce, they pivoted to Thibs - but ER's are not prioritized in his scheme so he wasn't able to showcase his special ability. How many times did we see him dropping into coverage, working out of a 2 pt. stance, taking an exaggerated looping rush to contain the QB etc.? Wink's pressures are manufactured and he can use anybody to do it.

If you notice, Wink talked up Thibs after he was drafted, but Schoen mentioned one of the things he learned from Parcells in Miami was not drafting scheme-specific players. (Because schemes change.) Knowing what we know of Wink & Schoen now, the Thibs pick seems like Schoen sticking to positional value at 5, and ignoring the lack of mesh with Wink's philosophy. They were quick to "throw Wink a bone" next draft and use the #1 on Deonte Banks.

Summary: The Giants haven't optimized the value out of that #5 overall pick, but they might now, with Bowen's more traditional approach. The front 4 will be expected to provide the pass rush, and Thibs will be attacking off the edge like a DE. Wink's scheme is player-simple and requires no thinking. Thibs is a cerebral, creative football player who I think will thrive in a more cerebral scheme.

Superb analysis 

Quote from: Trench on June 14, 2024, 10:47:14 PMIf he has a breakout year (which I fully expect because he looked lost dropping back in coverage so many times last year)....then what does it say about Wink?

Looking back, Wink's defenses in Baltimore were never outstanding in sacks, INTS, run stopping, red zone.  Where they were exceptional was opponent passer rating and the all important points yielded.  It's a curious combination, but the special sauce might be that Baltimore was always at or near the top in TOP, and that wasn't because of 3&outs or takeaways it was because Baltimore had a ball control offense that led the league in rushing attempts every year Wink was there.  And in his final year even the things his defense had been good at, including scoring defense, fell off the cliff.

What may be a sign of hope for us though, is the fact that after he left Baltimore's defense improved in a lot of categories.  May it be so for the Giants.

I think we tend to get over-enthusiastic about new coaches, particularly if they have a hook.  Wink, Coach Chaos, (both of whom are out of the NFL after their stints with the Giants) etc.  And a whole line of OL coaches who were regarded as saviors.