Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 19, 2024, 04:17:59 PMOthers here have brought this up in the past.

I have no desire to besmirch a guy who has passed away and who was a good coach for the Giants, plus I don't personally know the specifics, but I have heard enough smoke on this subject that I assume there was indeed fire.

It is probably the same issue I have heard.  Francesa used to bring him up all the time.  Would talk about how losing a Super Bowl was devastating.  USed to always mention Fassel and how he took a team to a SB, lost and now cant get a job.  I always felt it was odd Francesa would bring it up.  Like him or hate him, Francesa was well connected and I would think he would have heard the same thing I did if it was real.  He never mentioned it, but you would think he would have just not brought him up at all if that was the case.

Lombardi and Landry were pretty good coaches

Worst- Allie Sherman.....traded away Sam Huff for Dick James

Quote from: BluesCruz on June 20, 2024, 02:52:11 PMLombardi and Landry were pretty good coaches

Worst- Allie Sherman.....traded away Sam Huff for Dick James

The GM makes the trades, not the coach. Funny how Sherman gets all the blame for trading Huff and Modzelewski, not Wellington Mara who made all the other trades in those days. The bad drafts and trades continued long after Sherman was gone.

Quote from: coggs on June 20, 2024, 08:43:16 AMIt is probably the same issue I have heard.  Francesa used to bring him up all the time.  Would talk about how losing a Super Bowl was devastating.  USed to always mention Fassel and how he took a team to a SB, lost and now cant get a job.  I always felt it was odd Francesa would bring it up.  Like him or hate him, Francesa was well connected and I would think he would have heard the same thing I did if it was real.  He never mentioned it, but you would think he would have just not brought him up at all if that was the case.

Fair points.

I am a Francesa guy myself, as I think he's knowledgeable and also amusing (often unintentionally), but I can understand why some find him arrogant or a bit of a blowhard. They're not wrong. I like him anyway though. When he's not there anymore people will miss him around here.

I agree that he's well connected too, particularly with area teams, so you make good points.

Quote from: Giant Jim on June 20, 2024, 04:10:25 PMThe GM makes the trades, not the coach. Funny how Sherman gets all the blame for trading Huff and Modzelewski, not Wellington Mara who made all the other trades in those days. The bad drafts and trades continued long after Sherman was gone.

Excellent point!

Having said that, but for a split second, I thought about including Allie as a (Dis)Honorable Mention for that very point of consideration. I decided to give it to John McVay instead. I liked John and had "The Fumble" not occurred, it was very possible that he would have supplanted Andy Robustelli as the next Director of Operations / General Manager and would likely have brought "The Genius," Bill Walsh, to New York. We all know Bill wanted Phil Simms and such an alternate universe of Bill Walsh coaching Simms and the Giants would have been a fascinating outcome.

But "The Fumble" came to pass and McVay gets the spot instead of Allie. The 49ers get McVay, Walsh and Montana and their fate is sealed while the Giants get Young, Perkins and Simms, and their fate as well. Both teams rose from the ashes of the 70s to be among the best in the 80s, with SF taking the team of the decade, and the Giants knocking them off the pedestal in the 1990 NFC Championship. A fitting tribute to the success of those two great teams of that era.

Peace!

Without "The Fumble", anyone they hired for GM or head coach was sure to fail. Young or McVay would've been assistants to Wellington Mara the way Robustelli was. Walsh, Perkins or Parcells wouldn't have had the talent supplied to them that Young got them without Mara's interference.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 19, 2024, 04:17:59 PMOthers here have brought this up in the past.

I have no desire to besmirch a guy who has passed away and who was a good coach for the Giants, plus I don't personally know the specifics, but I have heard enough smoke on this subject that I assume there was indeed fire.

I thought it was public knowledge that he got caught doing the dead with a woman other than his wife in the parking lot. Plus it was pretty obvious that he had a serious drinking problem and attended and hosted wild parties. Was there actually more?

Quote from: TONKA56 on June 20, 2024, 07:55:28 PMI thought it was public knowledge that he got caught doing the dead with a woman other than his wife in the parking lot. Plus it was pretty obvious that he had a serious drinking problem and attended and hosted wild parties. Was there actually more?

I don't know exactly what "public knowledge" means in the above context, but if you google the stuff you're talking about, I don't see any articles from legitimate sources describing what you just summarized or anything else of the sort.

But yes, that is basically what I heard. But I thought of it as more of a rumor than "public knowledge." Perhaps I'm wrong.

In any event, at this point, none of this matters much.

Quote from: Giant Jim on June 20, 2024, 07:23:14 PMWithout "The Fumble", anyone they hired for GM or head coach was sure to fail. Young or McVay would've been assistants to Wellington Mara the way Robustelli was. Walsh, Perkins or Parcells wouldn't have had the talent supplied to them that Young got them without Mara's interference.

That is the salient point where having a boss named Mara, versus a boss named DeBartolo, exposes the former even further in spite of the claims Andy Robustelli made about cleaning the "rot" out of the organization as he described in his book "Once a Giant, Always." It's an excellent read and one I'd highly recommend if you can get your hands on one.

Peace!

I think the GM's have a lot to do with good vs bad coaches.  Ernie Acorsi was great but his two successors were beyond terrible!

Quote from: WheresDayne on June 21, 2024, 12:21:32 PMI think the GM's have a lot to do with good vs bad coaches.  Ernie Acorsi was great but his two successors were beyond terrible!

I think there is a bit of a symbiotic relationship between HC and GM.  Tom Coughlin was a great HC who helped make Accorsi and Reese look better.  I think a similar relationship existed between Bill Parcells and George Young

Quote from: kartanoman on June 21, 2024, 09:42:41 AMThat is the salient point where having a boss named Mara, versus a boss named DeBartolo, exposes the former even further in spite of the claims Andy Robustelli made about cleaning the "rot" out of the organization as he described in his book "Once a Giant, Always." It's an excellent read and one I'd highly recommend if you can get your hands on one.

Peace!

I read it awhile ago, but I think I will read the 2nd half again next time I fly. I didn't find him to be totally honest, especially about Wellington. It seems no one that leaves the team has anything bad to say about Wellington.

Even George Young was forced to keep useless employees like Ray Walsh and Jim Lee Howell. Most trash nephew Tim, but he stayed away from football decisions thru the first half of Robustelli's tenure until he had proof that his uncle was still making the deicisions and running the team. After the Larry Czonka signing, Tim purposly caused interferance for them until Robustelli resigned and along with Art Modell from Cleveland and Rooney from Pittsburgh got Pete Rozelle to convince Wellington to step back and allow the next GM to run the team unimpeded.

The most creditable account of this era is the chapter on Tim Mara in the book "Giants Again" by Dave Klein, about 1982. Very hard to find but the only source I could find that told Tim's side. We wouldn't have had the championship teams of the 80's if Tim didn't step up and force Wellington to step back. Sadly, like the ring of honor, Tim will be ignored from the 100 year celebrations as John continues to erase his cousin's name from their history.

Random thoughts. To me, Tim Mara is a Giants hero.  I don't think we get professional management if Wellington was able to call the shots and if not for Tim, I think Giants history would have been much different and not in a good way.

Second, not a Handley fan by any means and the fact that he never coached again possibly says volumes about his ability.  But, he was handed a pretty lousy by the way Parcells left an aging team.  As I recall, Parcells left pretty close to training camp and Handley could not pick his staff.  Not a good situation for a new coach. 

Third, I think John Mara got suckered in hiring McAdoo the same way Gettleman got suckered in drafting Daniel Jones.  It comes down I have to grab the guy because someone was going to steal him away if I don't do it now.  I don't think McAdoo was ready when he was hired and its a mystery that the team performed as they did in his 1st season.  It sort of tells me there was more talent there plus the defensive free agents.  Which leads me to my last thought.  I am as big a Coughlin fan as there is anywhere.  But, I thought he lost some of his fastball near the end.  Although, it would have been interesting to see how they would have done if Mara had spent those big bucks on the defense when Coughlin was running things that was spent when he was gone.

Last, in comparing Parcells and Coughlin.  I was never a big fan of Parcells but he was the better coach all things considered.  But, I keep coming back to the net result of Plaxico shooting himself in 2008.  In my opinion, the Giants were clearly the class of the league and as the season went on, that spread widened.  I wonder how Coughlin would have been regarded with back to back super bowl wins.  I even wonder sometimes if we were on the road to establishing a dynasty and if people would be talking about Cougjlin the way they talk about Belichick.  That's for nights when I cant sleep. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on June 20, 2024, 07:28:49 AMI think when you are evaluating HCs it's worth noting the team records before and after they took over.  In the case of Handley, he took over the champions with a 13-3 record (then going 8-8 and 6-10) and when Dan Reeves took over the record jumped to 11-5

Shurmer took over a bad team and only slightly improved.  When Joe Judge took over from him, there 2 more games were won.

I think you a minimizing the impact of losing Parcells and Belichek at more or less the same time. Whoever coached that team was probably going to fail. You can lose two of the brightest coaching minds of all time and not miss a beat. Handley sucked as a coach, without doubt. I just think Shurmur was worse.

Quote from: nb587 on June 21, 2024, 01:16:16 PMRandom thoughts. To me, Tim Mara is a Giants hero.  I don't think we get professional management if Wellington was able to call the shots and if not for Tim, I think Giants history would have been much different and not in a good way.
 

I don't want to go any more off-topic about Tim Mara here, but I plan on posting a long thread in the history section one day which I will go more into details of the uncle and nephew relationship as to how it affected the team. I just have to find the time. Typing is easy, but I need to verify facts and record where my info I found comes from to answer any questions people might have.

Quote from: nb587 on June 21, 2024, 01:16:16 PMThird, I think John Mara got suckered in hiring McAdoo the same way Gettleman got suckered in drafting Daniel Jones.  It comes down I have to grab the guy because someone was going to steal him away if I don't do it now.  I don't think McAdoo was ready when he was hired and its a mystery that the team performed as they did in his 1st season.  It sort of tells me there was more talent there plus the defensive free agents.  Which leads me to my last thought.  I am as big a Coughlin fan as there is anywhere.  But, I thought he lost some of his fastball near the end.  Although, it would have been interesting to see how they would have done if Mara had spent those big bucks on the defense when Coughlin was running things that was spent when he was gone.

John wanted McAdoo as an OC and then as a HC. I don't think he considered anyone else. Like McAdoo, no one else had a chance when Gettleman was available. His decision to hire Judge so quickly was another of him falling in love with a candidate and not listening to others.