Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 25, 2024, 04:49:05 PMNo I agree, but it was on full display in 2022 as well. He actually threw it deep more on average in 2023 than 2022. So if we only had the 5 games in 2023 each qb played to go on then you are spot on as it refers to that individual season. The problem I have is that even when he was thought to be playing well in 2022, the deep game was nonexistent.

I truly believe that was by design. Pass protection was still crap but they designed plays to get the ball out quicker by targeting the short routes to stem the pass rush.

Unfortunately, Jones got too comfortable and transformed from Danny Dimes to Checkdown Danny.

Quote from: Trench on June 25, 2024, 05:41:10 PMAgreed, but this was largely due to the fact he locked on recievers and many times had other options but never looked past his 1st progression.

I don't agree that it was due to his locking onto his primary read. He needs more time and protection. He may as well be a potato, as much as he's been sacked (I'll see myself out  ). I do agree with you that his field vision is sub-par and that contributes to his lack of throws downfield when other receivers are open.

Quote from: T200 on June 26, 2024, 08:06:11 AMI don't agree that it was due to his locking onto his primary read. He needs more time and protection. He may as well be a potato, as much as he's been sacked (I'll see myself out  ). I do agree with you that his field vision is sub-par and that contributes to his lack of throws downfield when other receivers are open.

I wish I could agree Tim, but the way our backups made huge chunks of yardage (and clearly looked at more than one read WHILE dropping back to pass) is where I give pause. I was extremely criticized here for pushing and then (praising) the Pugh signing. Most everyone said it was a bad idea and he stinks and PFF was awful etc...but besides Thomas playing for many more snaps he was basically the only difference.

I just don't understand why Jones doesn't CONSISTENTLY practice looking off the DBs. I wish a reporter would ask the question

Quote from: Trench on June 26, 2024, 10:48:05 AMI wish I could agree Tim, but the way our backups made huge chunks of yardage (and clearly looked at more than one read WHILE dropping back to pass) is where I give pause. I was extremely criticized here for pushing and then (praising) the Pugh signing. Most everyone said it was a bad idea and he stinks and PFF was awful etc...but besides Thomas playing for many more snaps he was basically the only difference.

I just don't understand why Jones doesn't CONSISTENTLY practice looking off the DBs. I wish a reporter would ask the question

I addressed the first bolded point you made with my earlier response to JClayton. They weren't under the same pressure as Jones. They weren't under threat, if you will, to lose their jobs. They were auditioning for a starting role. They chose to be more aggressive. What's the worst that could happen? They'd go *BACK* to the bench. They could afford to try and make something happen because they really didn't have much to lose. Jones, OTOH, had very little room to mess up. He was more cautious and told to *NOT* make mistakes.

As far as him not looking off DBs, he already doesn't see the field well nor does he have the time/protection to look off DBs. I'd like to see him do it as well, but at the end of the day, it's just another tool/accessory that he could have at his disposal. It's not a requirement to be a successful QB. And, if his coaches aren't pressing him to do so, it's not going to be done if he doesn't naturally do it himself.

Quote from: T200 on June 26, 2024, 11:15:11 AMI addressed the first bolded point you made with my earlier response to JClayton. They weren't under the same pressure as Jones. They weren't under threat, if you will, to lose their jobs. They were auditioning for a starting role. They chose to be more aggressive. What's the worst that could happen? They'd go *BACK* to the bench. They could afford to try and make something happen because they really didn't have much to lose. Jones, OTOH, had very little room to mess up. He was more cautious and told to *NOT* make mistakes.

As far as him not looking off DBs, he already doesn't see the field well nor does he have the time/protection to look off DBs. I'd like to see him do it as well, but at the end of the day, it's just another tool/accessory that he could have at his disposal. It's not a requirement to be a successful QB. And, if his coaches aren't pressing him to do so, it's not going to be done if he doesn't naturally do it himself.

I think it goes all the way back to Garrett and Judge, they had him stop throwing that one pass he always used to do deep and it messed him up. It's crazy to think he threw deep more with Judge than Daboll but he did. Most of his deep throws in 2022 were in 2-3 games, and almost all of his deep throws in 2023 came in the Cardinals game. So he can do it but there's serious trepidation from either him or Daboll on the execution.

Jones is never going to be a top 10 or even 15 QB.  We need a true difference maker.

He lacks situational awareness and cannot throw the long ball outside the numbers

You either have it or you don't

He does not.  He also is a weak team leader, as a quiet type.
Mara likes his personality and approach to the game   Unfortunately the NFL is not a personality contest

Can yon win with him, yes.....but its more of a struggle than it needs to be

Ultimately he needs to be replaced.  He will make a fine backup somewhere else

DeVito and Taylor both showed you can move the ball with our base personnel.  Jones could not move the team

Quote from: BluesCruz on June 26, 2024, 01:03:53 PMJones is never going to be a top 10 or even 15 QB.  We need a true difference maker.

If he stays healthy for the entirety of the season, I say he finishes as a top 10 QB this season.

Let's make a friendly BBH wager:

If he finishes top 10, you change your signature to read:

"I WAS WRONG ABOUT DANIEL JONES!"

If he doesn't, you tell me what to put in mine.

I think it would be instructive for folks to go back and watch some games from his rookie year when he was doing a lot of things that he now is purported not to be able to do.  Yes, he had a big turnover problem, but when he was coached out of it a lot of baby went out with the bathwater, IMO.

Quote from: T200 on June 26, 2024, 01:15:38 PMIf he stays healthy for the entirety of the season, I say he finishes as a top 10 QB this season.

Let's make a friendly BBH wager:

If he finishes top 10, you change your signature to read:

"I WAS WRONG ABOUT DANIEL JONES!"

If he doesn't, you tell me what to put in mine.

I also believe he "could" be a top 10 QB if things break right and he finally "puts it together"....it could happen. But the guy so far is as frustrating a NY sports player as anyone I've rooted for.

Regarding our earlier conversation I take it to mean his "pressure" was of the mental kind (losing his job fear/not messing up)....if that's the case we have very big problems with Jones. The QB needs to wanna be there in the big spot. Cousins is a guy u can tell just loves competing in these spots.

I may be narrow minded but I just don't agree with those who simply say "he was under more pressure" because a lot of that could've been on Jones himself:
- did he make the pre snap read (he rarely if ever will change a play)
- did he process quick enough
- did he have an inordinate fear of failure while competing
- did he telegraph the play beforehand

I do hope he becomes top 10. He could be good - real good. But so far he hasn't showed an ability to adjust

Quote from: Trench on June 26, 2024, 02:43:08 PMI also believe he "could" be a top 10 QB if things break right and he finally "puts it together"....it could happen. But the guy so far is as frustrating a NY sports player as anyone I've rooted for.

Regarding our earlier conversation I take it to mean his "pressure" was of the mental kind (losing his job fear/not messing up)....if that's the case we have very big problems with Jones. The QB needs to wanna be there in the big spot. Cousins is a guy u can tell just loves competing in these spots.

I may be narrow minded but I just don't agree with those who simply say "he was under more pressure" because a lot of that could've been on Jones himself:
- did he make the pre snap read (he rarely if ever will change a play)
- did he process quick enough
- did he have an inordinate fear of failure while competing
- did he telegraph the play beforehand

I do hope he becomes top 10. He could be good - real good. But so far he hasn't showed an ability to adjust

Yes, that is precisely my view. He put pressure on himself. It's not a bad thing in and of itself. It's human nature to put pressure on ourselves as a means to perform at our highest level, whatever the endeavor. The problem is that he's wilting under not only his own pressure, but on the field as well.

I'm going to give the new line the first 4-6 games to develop some chemistry and assess how they do. There's only so much they can do in camp. They need live action across from guys who want to kick their asses for 60 minutes. That's when they'll show if they're gonna grow a set or shrivel up. If they turn into a solid unit, Jones will be a top 10 QB this year.

Quote from: T200 on June 26, 2024, 02:50:29 PMYes, that is precisely my view. He put pressure on himself. It's not a bad thing in and of itself. It's human nature to put pressure on ourselves as a means to perform at our highest level, whatever the endeavor. The problem is that he's wilting under not only his own pressure, but on the field as well.

I'm going to give the new line the first 4-6 games to develop some chemistry and assess how they do. There's only so much they can do in camp. They need live action across from guys who want to kick their asses for 60 minutes. That's when they'll show if they're gonna grow a set or shrivel up. If they turn into a solid unit, Jones will be a top 10 QB this year.

I agree. Except to me they get 4 games to show their stuff as an Oline. If we see our running game get 100 yards early on it will be telling in my mind. I look for WanDale to have a wonderful season. Hopefully the TE room is the biggest surprise of the season.

Quote from: Trench on June 26, 2024, 02:53:36 PMI agree. Except to me they get 4 games to show their stuff as an Oline. If we see our running game get 100 yards early on it will be telling in my mind. I look for WanDale to have a wonderful season. Hopefully the TE room is the biggest surprise of the season.

The reason I say 4-6 is because Jones is going to have to build/develop some confidence in them that they're going to keep defenders off of him at the snap. Once he gets comfortable and they can consistently give him close to three seconds, he's going to thrive. That's my hope anyway   

Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 25, 2024, 04:49:05 PMNo I agree, but it was on full display in 2022 as well. He actually threw it deep more on average in 2023 than 2022. So if we only had the 5 games in 2023 each qb played to go on then you are spot on as it refers to that individual season. The problem I have is that even when he was thought to be playing well in 2022, the deep game was nonexistent.

This is quite true; however, the passing game was balanced with Barkley's running (NOTE: especially in the first half of the season when he went like gangbusters) and Jones' mobility and taking off downfield for QB rushing yards that often mimicked long-yardage pass plays. That slowed down quite a bit once Barkley tapered off mid-to-latter part of the season; however, he eventually picked it up just in time for the late-season rally and playoffs. But Jones was starting to click using his mobility to buy time and throw clutch passes to receivers such as newcomer Isaiah Hodgins, who also helped receivers, such as Slayton, get open for big plays.

Going into season 2024, we are all trying to gauge what the situation is going to be with Jones, Locke and the offensive line, as well as the play calling, to gain a perspective whether we're in for more of the same from last season or, perhaps, the team will start with the basic concepts they wanted to employ on offense but now, with the new players they have, and the additional talent capabilities they believe they have to work with, in addition to any potential limitations they might have to work around with Jones from his now aggregate injury history, as well as Thomas, Ezeudu and Neal, we're not 100% certain the bottom line performance capability of this offense is before injury starts taking its toll.

But, when it comes to O-Line cohesiveness, integration into the offensive game plan, the ability for the offense to synergize into an efficient, cohesive unit that executes and can cause damage to opposing defenses (NOTE: especially within their own division), that's the kind of systematic-level impacts Daboll, Kafka, Bricillo and the rest of the coordinators had better be working their tails off during this off-season to get on the same page so these players "get it" long before week numbers six or seven. The expectation is they "get it" on opening day and, while it won't be synergistic coming out of the gates, it had better show growth and steady improvement from game to game.

If that occurs, I think Daniel Jones can succeed and, if he goes down, then Drew Locke can jump in and hold the fort down effectively in his absence.

Granted, everything I have just written is in generality; however, if the dots don't connect, it's not going to work. If we can conclude those dots appear to be connected, and Daniel Jones is, in fact, the limiting factor, then it is time to say they've done all they could to give him more than a fair opportunity after "ruining" him. It's unfortunate, but what's done is done and it's now time to move on. Personally, I would like to see him succeed but do not want to see progress elsewhere hampered if he is not the answer at QB.

That's about as fair an assessment as I can provide on Mister Jones; I wish him and the Football Giants all the very best in making the season a success!

Peace!

Quote from: LennG on June 24, 2024, 04:43:18 PMWhoever is calling the plays, that is the key. Do they have confidence in Jones to be able to make the plays you are suggesting? We really don't know what goes on in the huddle, in that are they sending in plays to push the ball down the field and Jones just can't complete them, or are they protecting Jones and just calling short routes for him to even try and succeed? The year we we not to the playoffs, and people keep bringing this year up as a Daniel Jones success story, it sure seemed as if they just played to his so-called strengths and never really had him pushing the ball down the field. His average years per pass were one of the lowest in the league, but that seems to be his strength so why change?

We sure have the weapons now to push the ball down the field, do we have the QB who can do it and does the coaching staff have the confidence in him to try that strategy?

Lenn,

QuoteWe sure have the weapons now to push the ball down the field, do we have the QB who can do it and does the coaching staff have the confidence in him to try that strategy?

The answer is yes, they have the QB who can do it, the question will be during the year is if he wants to do it.

I believe Daniel Jones knows that in order for the offense to be successful and to score more points, he's got to throw more 10+ - 20+ yard completions. 

I think he realizes he can't just throw 5–7-yard completions, he's got to look down the field and push the ball, if he is going to keep his job in 2025.

I'm sure he realized that same fact for the past few years, yet he continues to do so. As I said before, even in his winning season, the coaches felt that this was the best name plan for him, short dink and dunk and move the ball down the field. I really don't see how this will change. If the coaches have no confidence in him to throw it deeper and he basically had no time to do it (yet DeVito and Taylor did), nothing is going to change. Why you have confidence and no one else does is good for you. Once Jones gets hit a few times, the game plan will remain the same.