Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: todge on July 04, 2024, 02:02:19 PMThe Giants as a team are 22-36-1 in five years. The NFL doesn't assign Ws and Ls to QBs in their official stats and for good reason - it's a team sport. The other 21 guys and the coaching staff do matter.


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Todge,

This is actually a really good point.

For instance, Dan Fouts who was a good QB in the 70s-80s has a career losing record of 88-92-1.

Does this mean he was a bad QB?

As you have brought out before, this isn't tennis, it's a team sport.

Quote from: todge on July 04, 2024, 02:13:30 PMI take it you watched the six games DJ played in. I also take it you saw that the OL was on a record pace for sacks and that doesn't even include hits and hurries. You can cite all the stats you want, there isn't a QB in the league that can play well under constant duress like Jones did. You are entitled to your anti-DJ campaign but let's not get too carried away. I guess you're just of the belief that an offensive line isn't important to a QBs success .

Ted,

I am more curious as to why the analytics study that was posted is being ignored by many in favor of discussing other stats or win-loss records. 

Quote from: Jclayton92 on July 04, 2024, 01:17:25 PMDaniel Jones 2023 ranks:

#30 in EPA/att (-0.24)
#30 in YPA (6.0)
#28 in pass success rate (38%)
#32 in TD rate (1.8%)
#33 in TD:INT ratio (2:4)
#31 in explosive pass rate (11%)

#3 in 2023 cash ($46,000,000)

Almost dead last in every metric but number 1 in our hearts and 8th in clutch I guess.

Just out of curiosity, what were those numbers for 2022?

Quote from: Ed Vette on July 04, 2024, 01:24:33 PMYup.

I was using it as an example that we've gone over basically everything analytically with Jones especially epa wise. Write a story that he had the 7th best epa against the blitz in 2022 so there's hope with a stable line that we are productive. Tell me he improved tremendously outside the pocket 2022 so that should help assuming the line is better. Not just ranking him being clutch when it seems kind of silly. Tell me there are reasons for hope because it all benefits the fan base, it is in our collective interests for our qb to thrive because we don't have to find one. I have been hesitant and tough on Jones but going into the 2024 he's the guy so let's see how we get there, telling me he's clutch when we all have watched isn't it for me specifically.

Quote from: todge on July 04, 2024, 02:02:19 PMThe Giants as a team are 22-36-1 in five years. The NFL doesn't assign Ws and Ls to QBs in their official stats and for good reason - it's a team sport. The other 21 guys and the coaching staff do matter.


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Ok, that is fine, but then that observation also applies to any situation where "the team" comes through in the clutch as well.

Clearly you can't have it where it's specifically the QB who is "clutch" when the team has a come from behind win, as this ranking list implies, but then in all their losses, including the devastating, decidedly un-clutch ones, it's on "the team." That's having your cake and eating it too.

Jones sucked last year. So did the rest of the team. Next?

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 04, 2024, 04:53:55 PMOk, that is fine, but then that observation also applies to any situation where "the team" comes through in the clutch as well.

Clearly you can't have it where it's specifically the QB who is "clutch" when the team has a come from behind win, as this ranking list implies, but then in all their losses, including the devastating, decidedly un-clutch ones, it's on "the team." That's having your cake and eating it too.

Spot on and logical, Jeff.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on July 04, 2024, 02:16:46 PMAs you have brought out before, this isn't tennis, it's a team sport.

Interesting perspective coming from a poster who, on numerous occasions, has instructed others to consider that "Jones beat Lawerence" and/or "Jones beat Jackson" in 2022.  You repeatedly employed said logic as evidence that Jones is a good or "ascending quarterback." How do you reconcile these inconsistencies?

It appears you believe the Giants' wins are a result of Jones' effectiveness/clutchness, and the losses are a byproduct of team futility.

Now that I've had my July 4th laugh of the day, I've watched football for 70+ years and I know what my eyes tell me, not stts. We all see when a QB is 'clutch', we watch week after week, year after year, and again, we can tell who is a clutch QB and who are pretenders. Jones is in the latter class.

Clutch QB, again, I needed that laugh all over again.

Quote from: kingm56 on July 04, 2024, 07:01:42 PMInteresting perspective coming from a poster who, on numerous occasions, has instructed others to consider that "Jones beat Lawerence" and/or "Jones beat Jackson" in 2022.  You repeatedly employed said logic as evidence that Jones is a good or "ascending quarterback." How do you reconcile these inconsistencies?

It appears you believe the Giants' wins are a result of Jones' effectiveness/clutchness, and the losses are a byproduct of team futility.

Once again, that is simply taking one statement and then not quoting all of the other statements, and then building a straw man out of it, which is a fallacy in of itself, and it isn't intellectually honest.

However, we will use your own quotes up above, since you referenced 2022.

Here were Daniel Jones numbers in 2022

3,900 total yards - 22 TD - 5 Int - 93.2 RTG ranked 13th - 60.2 QBR ranked 6th.

After the 2022 season more than a few pundits were saying he was a good QB, and that he was ascending.

Next, I've brought out multiple times how important the offensive line is.

In 2019 and 2022 Daniel's best years were behind a decent o line, as they were ranked 17th and 18th respectively.

However, his worst years were in 2020, 2021, and 2023, as the o lines were ranked 31st, 30th and 29th, showing that he was playing behind one of the worst o lines in the NFL and it affected his numbers, showing that this is a team sport.

However, I do have a few questions for you.

A) You have repeatedly said that no QB who ever had his 5th year option declined, was ever re-signed, letting us know over and over again that DJ would not be brought back. However, DJ was brought back, and proved you wrong as he was signed to a 4 year 160-million-dollar contract.

How does that make you feel?

B) You have repeatedly told us over and over again, that no QB after a few years in the modern NFL ever truly improves and becomes a franchise guy.

However, Geno Smith (75-million-dollar contract), Baker Mayfield (100 million contract) Ryan Tannehill (118 million contract), and our very own Daniel Jones (160 million contract) did improve after a few years, all signing major contracts upwards of 100 million showing that you've come to an incorrect conclusion once again.

How does that make you feel?

Quote from: sxdxca38 on July 04, 2024, 09:30:13 PMOnce again, that is simply taking one statement and then not quoting all of the other statements, and then building a straw man out of it, which is a fallacy in of itself, and it isn't intellectually honest.

However, we will use your own quotes up above, since you referenced 2022.

Here were Daniel Jones numbers in 2022

3,900 total yards - 22 TD - 5 Int - 93.2 RTG ranked 13th - 60.2 QBR ranked 6th.

After the 2022 season more than a few pundits were saying he was a good QB, and that he was ascending.

Next, I've brought out multiple times how important the offensive line is.

In 2019 and 2022 Daniel's best years were behind a decent o line, as they were ranked 17th and 18th respectively.

However, his worst years were in 2020, 2021, and 2023, as the o lines were ranked 31st, 30th and 29th, showing that he was playing behind one of the worst o lines in the NFL and it affected his numbers, showing that this is a team sport.

However, I do have a few questions for you.

A) You have repeatedly said that no QB who ever had his 5th year option declined, was ever re-signed, letting us know over and over again that DJ would not be brought back. However, DJ was brought back, and proved you wrong as he was signed to a 4 year 160-million-dollar contract.

How does that make you feel?

B) You have repeatedly told us over and over again, that no QB after a few years in the modern NFL ever truly improves and becomes a franchise guy.

However, Geno Smith (75-million-dollar contract), Baker Mayfield (100 million contract) Ryan Tannehill (118 million contract), and our very own Daniel Jones (160 million contract) did improve after a few years, all signing major contracts upwards of 100 million showing that you've come to an incorrect conclusion once again.

How does that make you feel?

How has Daniel Jones improved after he signed his $160 million contract?

You completely avoided the question, and worse, refrained the premise. How do you explain your inconsistency?  Are you saying DJ victories over the aforementioned QBs no longer matter?  How does the notion that football is a team support reconcile with giving credit to an individual player for being 'clutch'? 

Concerning A, for the fifth time, I never made that statement; I provided you the exact quote of what I said in 2020 and it came to fruition.  Do I need to provide it to you again?

Concerning B, I completely reject your notion; as I've stated multiple times, it takes 30 games for a QB to demonstrate their abilities post 2012. None of those QBs magically became something they weren't after 30 GS. Your attempt to subvert the narrative, in an to prove I was incorrect, is boring. Should I iterate through your gems? I'm not going to do that because it's juvenile

How does it make me feel?  Football is inconsequential; it doesn't move my emotional dial one direction or the other.  I'm sure I've been wrong numerous times, and that's ok.  However, I was correct on the items you highlighted.

BL: If you're going to claim in one thread using
W/L to judge a QB is unfair, you should avoid using the same metric in another thread when it fits your narrative...that's the definition of hypocrisy. 

Quote from: LennG on July 04, 2024, 10:34:41 PMHow has Daniel Jones improved after he signed his $160 million contract?

He didn't; his 17 game averages across 5 seasons have been remarkably similar.

Quote from: kingm56 on July 04, 2024, 11:06:34 PMHe didn't; his 17 game averages across 5 seasons have been remarkably similar.

Really?  I look at his year by year stats and none of them seem remotely similar.  His Y/A was 6.6 to 6.8, until 2023 when it dropped to 5.2.  AY/A went from 6.1 to 6.9 until it dropped to 4.2 in 2023.  His INT% was from 1.1 to 2.6 until it ballooned to 3.8 in 2023.  His QBR ranged from 47.5 to 62.9, until it dropped to,36.3 in 2023.  His sack% was 5.7% to 9.1% until it ballooned to 15.8%.  His PR ranged from 80.5 to 92.7 before it dropped to 70.5. 

But instead of attributing the significant deterioration in all these categories to a combination of a tough beginning schedule, injuries on the o-line, and a powder puff camp that left the whole team unprepared to compete there is a narrative that somehow Daniel Jones just forgot how to play QB.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JoneDa05.htm

It's funny the lengths people will go to not credit Jones for anything positive.  I mean DJ's critics are now trying to argue there is no such thing as a clutch QB.   Like we didn't witness one of the greatest clutch QBs in Eli Manning.  We have seen QBs that don't look so clutch when the playoffs roll around like Tony Romo, Dak Prescott, and I think some would argue Lamar Jackson.

It's a team sport but how well a QB does in clutch situations is something that is reasonable to measure and despite claims to the contrary, has meaning.