Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Gmo11 on July 04, 2024, 08:05:58 PMI think there's a difference between hating a team and hating the moves they're making. Given the track record of the Giants recently if you hated most of their moves you were probably right. Many of us around here fall into that category.

I do agree with a lot of what he says. Clearly the Giants feel as though somewhere inside Jones is the ability to be a great QB despite no evidence to support it. The best compliment even Jones' most ardent supporters can muster is "well the OL was worse". And as Lombardi points out the great QBs can work around that and even make them better. Jones can't.

If nothing else at least this episode gave strong indications that if Jones doesn't put it together this year they're moving on. Excuses or not they don't really have a choice. Monetarily it wouldn't make sense and from a pulse of the fan base point of view they'd riot. And that's not to say they should be doing whatever the fans want but it's not just them. The entire league can see what the Giants refuse to acknowledge when it comes to Jones: he ain't it.

Hi GMO,

After the 2022 season DJ posted the 13th ranked RTG, and the 6th ranked QBR. Because of that he received a 4 year 160-million-dollar contract.

The Giants have added Malik Nabers, a potentially elite WR.

May I suggest, instead of making a claim that DJ is not it, why don't you just allow the season to play out and see how DJ performs before making a conclusive statement?

The reason is because he may just prove you wrong? but only time will tell.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on July 04, 2024, 09:48:29 PMHi GMO,

After the 2022 season DJ posted the 13th ranked RTG, and the 6th ranked QBR. Because of that he received a 4 year 160-million-dollar contract.

The Giants have added Malik Nabers, a potentially elite WR.

May I suggest, instead of making a claim that DJ is not it, why don't you just allow the season to play out and see how DJ performs before making a conclusive statement?

The reason is because he may just prove you wrong? but only time will tell.

We don't really have a choice in the matter. One way or another. We don't run or coach the team. So of course time will tell and we'll see it play out. That's how sports work.

And I hope he does prove me wrong. That would mean a tremendous season for the Giants. But if he did prove me wrong it's not because there was any sort of evidence to suggest it might happen. It would be because he improved in areas of clear deficiency or the coaches adjusted the offense to his skill set. Neither of those things are impossible but when talking about a QB in year 6 it's fairly unprecedented.

Quote from: Gmo11 on July 04, 2024, 10:09:31 PMWe don't really have a choice in the matter. One way or another. We don't run or coach the team. So of course time will tell and we'll see it play out. That's how sports work.

And I hope he does prove me wrong. That would mean a tremendous season for the Giants. But if he did prove me wrong it's not because there was any sort of evidence to suggest it might happen. It would be because he improved in areas of clear deficiency or the coaches adjusted the offense to his skill set. Neither of those things are impossible but when talking about a QB in year 6 it's fairly unprecedented.

I appreciated your well-reasoned and mild response, it was well received.

Quote from: Gmo11 on July 04, 2024, 08:05:58 PMClearly the Giants feel as though somewhere inside Jones is the ability to be a great QB despite no evidence to support it.

I mean, a lot of fans declared Jones to be a bust. What can Schoen and Daboll be thinking not to listen to them? I appreciate that part of the fun of being a fan is playing armchair quarterback, head coach, and general manager. That said, I think we should appreciate that the people inside 1925 Giants Way have considerably more information than anyone on the outside has.  There are some pundits who have more information than most, like Carl Banks and Bob Papa, but if they say what fans don't want to hear, they are dismissed as company hacks.

I think the Giants (and even tape guru Greg Cossell has said so) believe that Daniel Jones has the tools to be a good NFL QB.   They (unlike fans who dismiss this reality with terms like "excuses") appreciate that a quarterback's performance is greatly impacted by the support (protection, receivers, coaching/scheme) they receive.  I don't know how many times I can say it (and be ignored), but when you don't have the conditions for a QB to succeed, you don't know DJ is a "great QB." You just know there hasn't been a proper situation to see what you have.  In other words, no one is saying DJ is great, but it's, at best, premature to declare him a bust. 

It's funny; from time to time, Mike Lombardi has acknowledged that DJ has the ability.  He did it before the Giants drafted him.   Even when Lombardi criticized DJ's contract, it was the amount, not that they signed him.  Still, Mike's views are not always consistent (a fault of his that may have impacted his success).  His views tend to vary based on a point or position he is espousing. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 05, 2024, 07:26:36 AMI mean, a lot of fans declared Jones to be a bust. What can Schoen and Daboll be thinking not to listen to them? I appreciate that part of the fun of being a fan is playing armchair quarterback, head coach, and general manager. That said, I think we should appreciate that the people inside 1925 Giants Way have considerably more information than anyone on the outside has.  There are some pundits who have more information than most, like Carl Banks and Bob Papa, but if they say what fans don't want to hear, they are dismissed as company hacks.

I think the Giants (and even tape guru Greg Cossell has said so) believe that Daniel Jones has the tools to be a good NFL QB.   They (unlike fans who dismiss this reality with terms like "excuses") appreciate that a quarterback's performance is greatly impacted by the support (protection, receivers, coaching/scheme) they receive.  I don't know how many times I can say it (and be ignored), but when you don't have the conditions for a QB to succeed, you don't know DJ is a "great QB." You just know there hasn't been a proper situation to see what you have.  In other words, no one is saying DJ is great, but it's, at best, premature to declare him a bust. 

It's funny; from time to time, Mike Lombardi has acknowledged that DJ has the ability.  He did it before the Giants drafted him.   Even when Lombardi criticized DJ's contract, it was the amount, not that they signed him.  Still, Mike's views are not always consistent (a fault of his that may have impacted his success).  His views tend to vary based on a point or position he is espousing. 

I'm pretty sure the same can be said about almost every player drafted in the first two rounds. They have the physical skills, talents, and measurables to be good, even great. Part of that development is on the organization, mostly the coaching staff. The other part is on the player.

I agree that a QB needs a great supporting cast to reach his full potential. I don't agree that the supporting cast needs to be in place for that QB to be evaluated.

Teams move on from QBs all the time without them having a great or even good supporting cast. As you said, the people inside 1925 Giants Way have way more information than we will ever have. So when they decide to move on from Jones, it will be done based on what THEY know and not what fans want.

Quote from: T200 on July 05, 2024, 08:26:30 AMI'm pretty sure the same can be said about almost every player drafted in the first two rounds. They have the physical skills, talents, and measurables to be good, even great. Part of that development is on the organization, mostly the coaching staff. The other part is on the player.

I agree that a QB needs a great supporting cast to reach his full potential. I don't agree that the supporting cast needs to be in place for that QB to be evaluated.

Teams move on from QBs all the time without them having a great or even good supporting cast. As you said, the people inside 1925 Giants Way have way more information than we will ever have. So when they decide to move on from Jones, it will be done based on what THEY know and not what fans want.

Tim,

I suspect that you could, at least to a degree, be correct about being able to evaluate a QB in a very poor situation.   That said, would you say that raw production (which we see many fans and some pundits scout Jones by citing raw stats) be an effective way of evaluating a QB in a bad situation?

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 05, 2024, 08:34:08 AMTim,

I suspect that you could, at least to a degree, be correct about being able to evaluate a QB in a very poor situation.   That said, would you say that raw production (which we see many fans and some pundits scout Jones by citing raw stats) be an effective way of evaluating a QB in a bad situation?

Rich,

I think too many people, myself included, get caught up in looking for a singular cause for a situation. Raw production is just ONE aspect to consider when evaluating a player. Very few fans are balanced in their assessments. There aren't a lot of folks who are near the middle on how they see Jones. Discussing him is an opinionated tug of war of sorts.

The one-sided folks are easy to spot.

Quote from: T200 on July 05, 2024, 08:40:10 AMRich,

I think too many people, myself included, get caught up in looking for a singular cause for a situation. Raw production is just ONE aspect to consider when evaluating a player. Very few fans are balanced in their assessments. There aren't a lot of folks who are near the middle on how they see Jones. Discussing him is an opinionated tug of war of sorts.

The one-sided folks are easy to spot.

Tim,

I don't get into the prediction game.  I have degrees of optimism or pessimism for a given player based on the available evidence.   I was more optimistic about Jones last offseason than this one due to injuries and for what I perceive as letting the constant pressure impact him in a negative manner.  How optimistic or pessimistic I am for a given player changes as new evidence presents itself.  I will say that what I saw in episode one of Hard Knocks boosted my optimism for DJ a bit.  At this point, I would say I am 40% optimistic that Jones can succeed and 60% pessimistic that he will fail.   While admittedly, not declaring players to be busts or the next coming means I don't get to crow about being right, it does free me up to try and consider all information.

It's funny; I suspect most on the forum consider me pro-Jones.  I am pro my process more than pro-Jones.  When I hear people dismissing DJ's support system as "making excuses," it pains the logical side of my brain.  When I see people cherry-picking data to support their views that Jones is a bust, it bothers me.  I suspect that some of the people who are supportive of Jones have similar issues, but considering how any positive comment is met with many counterpoints, there doesn't seem to be much of a need to speak up.

I have been on this planet long enough to appreciate my predictions of the future are on par with flipping a coin.  So, I tend not to make predictions or, if I do, give them much weight.

For me the discussion between Schoen & Mara was telling (almost an "I told you so" to Mara on the DJ extension).

Schoen seemed to be playing for the cameras a bit with his defense of DJ and the "this is where we are now" approach.


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D Jones went to the playoffs so we know he can do that
But as Giant fan
We want superbowls
Now can he win that

I've been through this so many times I can barely muster the energy to type it, but QBs do not overcome having dysfunctional Offensive Lines and poor skill players simultaneously.

They can overcome 1 or the other - Burrow and Herbert are good examples. Bad OL but good WRs, and they produce.

You will not find a productive NFL QB who is elevating the Giants OL with Darius Slayton at WR1. Not happening. Not Mahomes, Marino, Montana, Brady. Nobody. As soon as you understand that, you understand trying to analyze Jones is a waste of time.

As others have pointed out, Nabers is here now and Wan'dale's back. He's got good WRs now, regardless of anything the OL does. We'll finally get to see for ourselves.

To me Lombardi answered the biggest mystery of all-

Why did DeVito and Taylor moved the ball downfield when Jones could not-

"The QB can bail out a struggling offensive line"- The good ones can do that.  Add that to the Parcells quote that QB is 90% between the ears and you have your answer

Jones got sacked 30 times last year in 6 games........Devito 37 times in 8 games........Taylor 17 times in 11 games...
Both Jones and DeVito took numerous sacks......Taylor somehow avoided them.   and Taylor definitely took many more long pass attempts as the other two.   This lays to rest the idea that DeVito had a better line.   Taylor had the veteran savvy to avoid the rush, not a better line.

Jones has situational awareness issues and hesitant processing issues that make him a train wreak behind such a line.  When people say he has all the tools, I think they mean physical tools.

I hate to say it but he fixates on the short pass patterns and panics and takes off way too often when the right answer is just toss the ball out of bounds.  Or heave it long in a 50/50 situation and if intercepted it usually only results in the same damage as a punt at worst.

50/50 balls are usually won by the receiver or the refs give an interface flag- Jones does not see it that way.  He wants a perfect situation before he pulls the trigger

Jones will never have the turbocharged Oline here on the Giants that he "needs to succeed" per just about everyone....its just not in the cards here in Blue.  Time to move on for Schoen before he is shown the door along with Daniel..and I believe Schoen knows that but he got boxed in by Mara insisting we retain Jones with that big contract.

Also, I also disagree that Mahonnes would not have moved the team with our line.   He is very clever and quick.  Jones is often in panic mode.

You cannot let Mara make the football decisions.  Thats how we got where we are.