Big Blue Huddle

Mike Lombardi has an obsession of bashing the Giants for reasons that many people probably don't know.

He may be a knowledgeable football person - but his hatred for the Giants makes his opinions of them pretty worthless to me.

Quote from: JT39 on July 07, 2024, 12:21:00 PMMike Lombardi has an obsession of bashing the Giants for reasons that many people probably don't know.

He may be a knowledgeable football person - but his hatred for the Giants makes his opinions of them pretty worthless to me.

With 2016 and 2022 being the exceptions, we are talking over a decade of futility.  It's hard to suggest that anyone criticizing the way the Giants do business has some sort of agenda or hatred against the team.

Quote from: JT39 on July 07, 2024, 12:21:00 PMMike Lombardi has an obsession of bashing the Giants for reasons that many people probably don't know.

He may be a knowledgeable football person - but his hatred for the Giants makes his opinions of them pretty worthless to me.

Enlighten us.

Quote from: Ed Vette on July 07, 2024, 02:41:45 PMEnlighten us.

I think that particular says everything about the reactions to Lombardi here and other blogs.  I am not a fan of Lombardi; I find him to be pompous and condescending.  But, anytime he writes or says anything critical of the Giants, which is pretty often, he is bashed as being anti Giants or an idiot or worse.  The fact is, and the team record speaks for itself, he is usually (and unfortunately) right. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 07, 2024, 01:02:39 PMWith 2016 and 2022 being the exceptions, we are talking over a decade of futility.  It's hard to suggest that anyone criticizing the way the Giants do business has some sort of agenda or hatred against the team.

There have been teams and organizations that have been worse than the Giants and in within the past 20 years we still have two titles.

He makes it a point to disparage the Giants. It's sad.

Quote from: nb587 on July 07, 2024, 03:05:51 PMBut, anytime he writes or says anything critical of the Giants, which is pretty often, he is bashed as being anti Giants or an idiot or worse.  The fact is, and the team record speaks for itself, he is usually (and unfortunately) right. 

None of that is untrue or unfair.

However, ask yourself this question: why does Lombardi bash the Giants so much more frequently than he does the Jets? He definitely does, and I'm curious why. Why are the Giants more deserving of that than the Jets? The Jets have the longest active streak of consecutive seasons missing the playoffs of anybody in the league.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 07, 2024, 05:33:51 PMNone of that is untrue or unfair.

However, ask yourself this question: why does Lombardi bash the Giants so much more frequently than he does the Jets? He definitely does, and I'm curious why. Why are the Giants more deserving of that than the Jets? The Jets have the longest active streak of consecutive seasons missing the playoffs of anybody in the league.

The Giants are a more significant team in the NFL.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 07, 2024, 05:33:51 PMNone of that is untrue or unfair.

However, ask yourself this question: why does Lombardi bash the Giants so much more frequently than he does the Jets? He definitely does, and I'm curious why. Why are the Giants more deserving of that than the Jets? The Jets have the longest active streak of consecutive seasons missing the playoffs of anybody in the league.

I think of the Giants as a core franchise. 49ers, Green Bay, Cowboys, Steelers, and Bears etc so people naturally expect more. Nothing like NY when the team is winning.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on July 07, 2024, 06:17:23 PMI think of the Giants as a core franchise. 49ers, Green Bay, Cowboys, Steelers, and Bears etc so people naturally expect more. Nothing like NY when the team is winning.

What's a core franchise?  Oldest?  Most Super Bowls?  Major cities?

How do you exclude Pats?  Major city plus SBs, Bills with '70s lore plus consec SBs, Broncos in multiple SBs, Raiders with decades of success.

Tough to define.

Quote from: Philosophers on July 07, 2024, 06:47:39 PMWhat's a core franchise?  Oldest?  Most Super Bowls?  Major cities?

How do you exclude Pats?  Major city plus SBs, Bills with '70s lore plus consec SBs, Broncos in multiple SBs, Raiders with decades of success.

Tough to define.

It's why I said etc so I didn't have to keep listing but yeah I agree.

Quote from: Ed Vette on July 07, 2024, 10:33:33 AMAll good points.

Drafting BPA at a position of need covers that. If there are three top Offensive Linemen high up in the First Round, a team should draft the one that fits the blocking scheme best but be most balanced because teams employ multiple schemes. For the Giants and most teams, Pass Protection is paramount over Zone Vs Angle Blocking.

If the team had a Base 3/4 Defense, the MLB's need to have Coverage skills. The Giants signed Bobby Okereke because he was adept at both Pass Coverage and Gap Filling.

I think in this discussion it's refined to position and need and not just an overall philosophy. Nabors vs Odunze was a choice based on not just talent, but QB and Oline compatibility.

Asking the DC what he needs and his response was a partner to Dex and someone who can apply pressure, they went with priority. So they signed Burns and did the sign of the Cross on the Dlineman and Boogie Woogie. That came down to a lot of factors which included capital, and talent availability.

To sum it up, it's never about either or.

What Ed said. 

Quote from: BluesCruz on July 07, 2024, 11:42:15 AMI think the Giant in general have trouble letting go of their biggest mistakes

Blues: Yes, that is one way to look at it. 

But the opposite is also IMO a legit way of looking at it, as stated below.

The Giants try to avoid knee-jerk reactions when something goes wrong; they would rather err on the side of giving a player they believe in the benefit of the doubt, because it breeds loyalty from other members of the team who are watching... and who see that ownership/management are a bunch of good guys to work for.

Bob

If you have time, Mike goes into great detail about his thoughts on the Giants.

"This is a franchise that believed in a system, believed in a process by the great George Young that have kind of deviated away from it. When they brought Shane Bowen in and said what are you looking for in your defense, that goes against everything that the Giants when they were successful believed in."[/b]
[/quote]

I am not enough of a historian  to remember exactly how they operated in the George Young era.  Is this successful formula what caused them to draft Gary Zimmerman instead of Reggie White?

I really have a hard time understanding exactly what Lombardi thinks the Giants did so differently.  Is he suggesting that George Young didn't speak to the coaches at all or take any feedback from them?  I really have no idea if he did or didn't. 

Also trying to figure out examples of situations where teams drafted guys only for a scheme match.  Feel like its not a one or the other situation. 

Did the conversation with Bowen go something like this: 

Schoen: What do you think the team needs to make a solid improvement on the defense?
Bowen:  A top flight pass rusher that can make it hard to double Dex or Thibodeaux.  Next help on the backside, especially anyone with good ball skills

That hardly seems drafting or signing for scheme.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on July 08, 2024, 03:26:34 PM"This is a franchise that believed in a system, believed in a process by the great George Young that have kind of deviated away from it. When they brought Shane Bowen in and said what are you looking for in your defense, that goes against everything that the Giants when they were successful believed in."[/b]


I am not enough of a historian  to remember exactly how they operated in the George Young era.  Is this successful formula what caused them to draft Gary Zimmerman instead of Reggie White?

I really have a hard time understanding exactly what Lombardi thinks the Giants did so differently.  Is he suggesting that George Young didn't speak to the coaches at all or take any feedback from them?  I really have no idea if he did or didn't. 

Also trying to figure out examples of situations where teams drafted guys only for a scheme match.  Feel like its not a one or the other situation. 

Did the conversation with Bowen go something like this: 

Schoen: What do you think the team needs to make a solid improvement on the defense?
Bowen:  A top flight pass rusher that can make it hard to double Dex or Thibodeaux.  Next help on the backside, especially anyone with good ball skills

That hardly seems drafting or signing for scheme.

It's a difference in philosophies.  Lombardi is from the George Young era (that Parcells was not a fan of as he often said he should have a say in buying the groceries if he is fixing the meal), and the GM had a vision of what type of players the team wanted.  In other words, the GM would conceive of the type of team he wanted and draft accordingly.

Joe Schoen believes that the GM and scouts should get the players their coaches want. Bowen was doing exactly what Wink did prior. Bowen was telling the Giants scouting staff the type of players he preferred for his system of defense. 

Frankly, I am not sure what side I land on.  I think both Mike and men like Schoen have made compelling cases for their way of operating.  The only downside to Schoen's system is that Joe has been drafting Wink's players for two seasons only to have Wink gone.  The downside of what Lombardi is advocating is that you can have players the coaches don't want.  When that happens, you increase the chances the player will be a bust.