Big Blue Huddle

Mara needs to find a hobby

Shoen appears to be a good find but he is learning as he goes.....he is not there yet

Daboll seems humorless and perhaps above his pay grade.  His approach screams assistant coach.
He lacks Gravitas.  Perhaps this is why we hear rumor of asst coaches warning "Do no go there"

Perhaps that will come with time if he can find a QB and path to success.
Right now the jury I out and he could easily crash and burn like our last 3 HCs.
As they say success breeds success....we need to see progress.

This is a critical year for the Giants.  A disaster this year could lead to a new HC and most certainly  a new QB

When you compare these guys to Pete Carroll, Belechick, or Mike Tomlin for instance
There is a pretty big cavern to cross before they all feel comfortable in their position like those guys. 

I don't know if Carroll, or Belicheck would have another run in them.  Tomlin if he could be lured here would be a big upgrade. 

Well the party starts in August....and away we go as Jackie Gleason would say

Quote from: BluesCruz on July 10, 2024, 08:11:14 AMMara needs to find a hobby

Shoen appears to be a good find but he is learning as he goes.....he is not there yet

Daboll seems humorless and perhaps above his pay grade.  His approach screams assistant coach.
He lacks Gravitas.  Perhaps this is why we hear rumor of asst coaches warning "Do no go there"

Perhaps that will come with time if he can find a QB and path to success.
Right now the jury I out and he could easily crash and burn like our last 3 HCs.
As they say success breeds success....we need to see progress.

This is a critical year for the Giants.  A disaster this year could lead to a new HC and most certainly  a new QB

When you compare these guys to Pete Carroll, Belechick, or Mike Tomlin for instance
There is a pretty big cavern to cross before they all feel comfortable in their position like those guys. 

I don't know if Carroll, or Belicheck would have another run in them.  Tomlin if he could be lured here would be a big upgrade. 

Well the party starts in August....and away we go as Jackie Gleason would say

And if they don't, we'll be in the bleachers screaming "YOU DIRTY BUM" followed by GEEET OUUUT" and "BANG - ZOOOOM" and "TO THE MOON WITH YA, ALICE!"

And the beat goes on.

Might as well make a Honeymooners parody out of it while it's still good.

Peace!

Bang zoom to the moon!!! Indeed

Big year coming up for us

I like Joe Schoen a lot but as a young exec, he does not have the vast experience that can bring insights.  He may see a player as only a dollar and cents decision when it is more.

It is clear to me that pretty much everyone is viewing and reacting to Hard Knocks through their own pre-conceived views and cherry-picking the narratives that fit those views. That is hardly surprising.

If any of you have ever seen the documentary over the Browns upping sticks to Baltimore it is apparent that the younger HC Bellichick was far from his fully formed peak. You can see some of the attributes but you would not project his future if you did not know it from that snapshot of him. Worth bearing in mind I think.

Everyday at work is a school day for any executive. For me the jury is out on Schoen and Daboll as it should be after two such disparate seasons but I still expect them both to get two more years not one unless this season is at least as bad a mess on and off the field as the last one with no sign that any of the behavioural lessons have been learned.

I agree with everything you are saying

We hired two rookies at their position- Schoen (who certainly looks the part) and Daboll who despite much NFL experience is getting his 1st chance to steer the ship.

They walked into a loaded situation with Mara family in the office and un-fireable
An owner who had fallen in love with Barkley and Jones- two guys who cannot sustain a drive

They will be very fortunate to succeed here.....it won't be easy and not been

As a fan Id be happy to just whaloop Philly and Dallas the year at least once and exceed a .500 record

the rest would be gravy

Quote from: londonblue on July 11, 2024, 02:44:31 PMIt is clear to me that pretty much everyone is viewing and reacting to Hard Knocks through their own pre-conceived views and cherry-picking the narratives that fit those views. That is hardly surprising.

If any of you have ever seen the documentary over the Browns upping sticks to Baltimore it is apparent that the younger HC Bellichick was far from his fully formed peak. You can see some of the attributes but you would not project his future if you did not know it from that snapshot of him. Worth bearing in mind I think.

Everyday at work is a school day for any executive. For me the jury is out on Schoen and Daboll as it should be after two such disparate seasons but I still expect them both to get two more years not one unless this season is at least as bad a mess on and off the field as the last one with no sign that any of the behavioural lessons have been learned.

You have cleverly pointed out the one facet about coming into a "business" with a long-standing tradition, as a squeaky-clean new leader, and given the keys and commissioned to turn its fortunes around. EVERY DAY is an opportunity to learn something new! If you haven't learned even one thing, at the end of a normal business day, then you aren't doing your job very well at all.

The analogy of Belichick at Cleveland is a good example to use as that situation was unique in the sense it was free of Parcells' influence, and gave Belichick the opportunity to build something of his very own from the grass-roots on up. Indeed, you couldn't connect him then with the man who won all those Lombardi trophies at New England much later in his career; however, the two elements which stood out in that NFL film (i.e. "A Football Life - Cleveland '95"), was just how rigorous and detail-oriented his preparation was, his demanding accountability to that decimal point of his staff and, surprisingly, the loyalty and bond his staff had with him as things eventually came together and the Browns became a playoff team again. Interestingly, a man spoken about often here, Mike Lombardi, was the Browns' Director of Player Personnel during Belichick's years.

During the Browns' first couple of years, and before Parcells jumped back into coaching with the Patriots, it appeared that "the Two Bills" were still on good terms and "Big Bill" was there for "Little Bill" as he was getting acclimated into the head coaching role. But that all changed once Parcells took the Patriots job. Mentor became rival and Belichick was intent on showing his former boss how much he had learned in that short period of time by beating Parcells, and his Patriots, in the 1994 AFC Wild Card game.

Then came the scenario no head coach could survive under, not even the legendary Paul Brown himself. Halfway through the 1995 season, Art Modell announced he was taking his toys and leaving Cleveland for Baltimore and both he, and his administrators left the operations hanging while the season was still playing out. The turmoil which followed made the situation impossible to conduct business with any sense of real purpose. Belichick was left stranded in Cleveland when the season ended, and learned afterward he was dismissed. Go back to what I mentioned earlier about going into the office and learning something new every day? We've read about Parcells "nearly" getting fired and, if he was given another season, he would do things HIS way. Even that doesn't compare to what Belichick experienced following the 1995 season. Everything he waited for, in a head coaching position, only to find out his team picked up and left town without him and, adding insult to injury, wired a "Dear John" telegram officially announcing he and everything else left there was for the scrap pile. What do you think Little Bill learned from that experience? What do you think Little Bill thought about every time his team played the Ravens from that point onward?

In the end, loyalty won out in the end as he was invited to join Parcells' staff in New England, in 1996, for what would be a run for the Super Bowl, which fell short at the hand of Brett Favre and too many mistakes by their own players. Parcells moved on but Belichick planted a seed that would one day become his golden ticket. The rest, as they say, is now history.

So, back to Schoen and Daboll. Indeed, it is way too early in the game right now and "instant gratification" won't define these two. Truth of the matter is that Parcells and Young didn't provide "instant gratification" either. That whole story began with Young and another guy, Ray Perkins, who is rarely mentioned anymore when discussing the Renaissance of the Giants of the 1980s. You don't get to Young and Parcells, or even Parcells and Belichick, unless you have the foundation of Young and Perkins in place from the get-go (NOTE: Perkins hired both Parcells AND Belichick). That is the much closer comparison, if we are making comparisons here, to Schoen and Daboll,   than Young-Parcells.

Lombardi and Belichick is to Young and Perkins is to Schoen and Daboll, in my personal opinion, based on my observations thus far. Perkins started getting the results in year three. Belichick in Cleveland clicked by year four and Daboll, despite the surprising first year Wild Card appearance, is hoping to show significant improvement this coming season and be vectoring up by next.

This is my take of the Giants "Under Development" at this time. It is not unreasonable nor should a gun be pointed at anyone's head at this time. The team needs to be smart and understand its strengths and weaknesses, its vulnerabilities and its areas of opportunity, and manage those to maximize yield out of this group in the season ahead. Most important, they all need to feel they are "included" and validated as important cogs in the machine that makes the Giants go. That's the key. That and the three major objectives I always bring up (NOTE: I need not mention them again).

Peace!

Quote from: kartanoman on July 11, 2024, 05:52:11 PMYou have cleverly pointed out the one facet about coming into a "business" with a long-standing tradition, as a squeaky-clean new leader, and given the keys and commissioned to turn its fortunes around. EVERY DAY is an opportunity to learn something new! If you haven't learned even one thing, at the end of a normal business day, then you aren't doing your job very well at all.

The analogy of Belichick at Cleveland is a good example to use as that situation was unique in the sense it was free of Parcells' influence, and gave Belichick the opportunity to build something of his very own from the grass-roots on up. Indeed, you couldn't connect him then with the man who won all those Lombardi trophies at New England much later in his career; however, the two elements which stood out in that NFL film (i.e. "A Football Life - Cleveland '95"), was just how rigorous and detail-oriented his preparation was, his demanding accountability to that decimal point of his staff and, surprisingly, the loyalty and bond his staff had with him as things eventually came together and the Browns became a playoff team again. Interestingly, a man spoken about often here, Mike Lombardi, was the Browns' Director of Player Personnel during Belichick's years.

During the Browns' first couple of years, and before Parcells jumped back into coaching with the Patriots, it appeared that "the Two Bills" were still on good terms and "Big Bill" was there for "Little Bill" as he was getting acclimated into the head coaching role. But that all changed once Parcells took the Patriots job. Mentor became rival and Belichick was intent on showing his former boss how much he had learned in that short period of time by beating Parcells, and his Patriots, in the 1994 AFC Wild Card game.

Then came the scenario no head coach could survive under, not even the legendary Paul Brown himself. Halfway through the 1995 season, Art Modell announced he was taking his toys and leaving Cleveland for Baltimore and both he, and his administrators left the operations hanging while the season was still playing out. The turmoil which followed made the situation impossible to conduct business with any sense of real purpose. Belichick was left stranded in Cleveland when the season ended, and learned afterward he was dismissed. Go back to what I mentioned earlier about going into the office and learning something new every day? We've read about Parcells "nearly" getting fired and, if he was given another season, he would do things HIS way. Even that doesn't compare to what Belichick experienced following the 1995 season. Everything he waited for, in a head coaching position, only to find out his team picked up and left town without him and, adding insult to injury, wired a "Dear John" telegram officially announcing he and everything else left there was for the scrap pile. What do you think Little Bill learned from that experience? What do you think Little Bill thought about every time his team played the Ravens from that point onward?

In the end, loyalty won out in the end as he was invited to join Parcells' staff in New England, in 1996, for what would be a run for the Super Bowl, which fell short at the hand of Brett Favre and too many mistakes by their own players. Parcells moved on but Belichick planted a seed that would one day become his golden ticket. The rest, as they say, is now history.

So, back to Schoen and Daboll. Indeed, it is way too early in the game right now and "instant gratification" won't define these two. Truth of the matter is that Parcells and Young didn't provide "instant gratification" either. That whole story began with Young and another guy, Ray Perkins, who is rarely mentioned anymore when discussing the Renaissance of the Giants of the 1980s. You don't get to Young and Parcells, or even Parcells and Belichick, unless you have the foundation of Young and Perkins in place from the get-go (NOTE: Perkins hired both Parcells AND Belichick). That is the much closer comparison, if we are making comparisons here, to Schoen and Daboll,   than Young-Parcells.

Lombardi and Belichick is to Young and Perkins is to Schoen and Daboll, in my personal opinion, based on my observations thus far. Perkins started getting the results in year three. Belichick in Cleveland clicked by year four and Daboll, despite the surprising first year Wild Card appearance, is hoping to show significant improvement this coming season and be vectoring up by next.

This is my take of the Giants "Under Development" at this time. It is not unreasonable nor should a gun be pointed at anyone's head at this time. The team needs to be smart and understand its strengths and weaknesses, its vulnerabilities and its areas of opportunity, and manage those to maximize yield out of this group in the season ahead. Most important, they all need to feel they are "included" and validated as important cogs in the machine that makes the Giants go. That's the key. That and the three major objectives I always bring up (NOTE: I need not mention them again).

Peace!

Outstanding post, Chris.

@kartanoman and @londonblue

I think you guys both brought forth interesting points and ideas.  I will say this.  The GM position is slightly different than the head coach position.  There have been HCs that didn't do well their first time as head coaches, but they do well their second go around.  GMs generally don't have the luxury of a second chance.  Most fired GMs never get another shot at the top job.  So GMs need to hit the ground running, so to speak.

I will also say that while Schoen isn't old (he's 45).  In my opinion, he is starting his peak management years.  By 45, one has usually matured and gained some wisdom, but this is nowhere near old enough to suffer any age-related decline or be too old to learn new tricks.   Schoen has also been in management roles since 2013 and this is his 3rd year as GM.

I say all that to say that while I wouldn't expect to see a finished product, I would expect to see a recognizable form of the GM Joe Schoen will ultimately become.  I mean, there is still room for some refinement, but at this point, he should pretty much be a solid GM if that is ultimately what he is.