Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 11, 2024, 10:32:04 AMEd,

I thought I made it clear, I didn't agree with Gettleman's vision.  So let us not conflate the good process of having a vision, versus the results when you have an incorrect vision (and also Gettleman's player acquisition failed to fulfill his vision).

How the sausage is made is what results in a good or bad sandwich.

It's pure conjecture to say he hasn't got a vision- maybe it's kept behind closed doors?

This feels like it's descending into a disagreement where only one of our points of view can exist, I checked in for a discussion. Not an argument.

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 11, 2024, 10:32:04 AMEd,

I thought I made it clear, I didn't agree with Gettleman's vision.  So let us not conflate the good process of having a vision, versus the results when you have an incorrect vision (and also Gettleman's player acquisition failed to fulfill his vision).

How the sausage is made is what results in a good or bad sandwich.

But do we need to know how the sausage is made? If the sandwich is good, why does it matter how the sausage was made?

The only thing that corresponds so far being discussed is Mike Lombardi is a wiener!

    

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on July 11, 2024, 10:34:36 AMIt's pure conjecture to say he hasn't got a vision- maybe it's kept behind closed doors?

This feels like it's descending into a disagreement where only one of our points of view can exist, I checked in for a discussion. Not an argument.

That's not how management works.  Your vision for your team is like a company's mission statement.  It is something that you put out in front of and repeat often. It's how an organization starts working together towards common goals.  It's something you post throughout the building, not something you lock away in a closet.

Quote from: T200 on July 11, 2024, 10:36:30 AMBut do we need to know how the sausage is made? If the sandwich is good, why does it matter how the sausage was made?

It matters because how it is made determines whether a sandwich is good or bad. In the case of the Giants, we had one sandwich that wasn't bad (2022) and another that was rancid and bad with the very first bite (2023). Now, we are getting a glimpse into how the sausage is made, and it can help us understand why the product lacks consistency.

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 11, 2024, 10:38:16 AMThat's not how management works.  Your vision for your team is like a company's mission statement.  It is something that you put out in front of and repeat often. It's how an organization starts working together towards common goals.  It's something you post throughout the building, not something you lock away in a closet.

Thank you. I'm an academic leader. I lead a faculty of 124 academics, I understand how management works.

Those who need to know the vision, direction and expectations are well aware of it. I am confident that JS would not be in the seat he is in without the basic fundamentals of management.

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 11, 2024, 10:40:49 AMIt matters because how it is made determines whether a sandwich is good or bad. In the case of the Giants, we had one sandwich that wasn't bad (2022) and another that was rancid and bad with the very first bite (2023). Now, we are getting a glimpse into how the sausage is made, and it can help us understand why the product lacks consistency.

I disagree. I'm sure you have had many wonderful sandwiches. Do you know how each of those were made? Not knowing how it was made did/does not change the quality of the product.

"How was your sandwich, sir?"

"Well, I'm not sure. Can you tell me how it was made?"

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on July 11, 2024, 10:43:46 AMThank you. I'm an academic leader. I lead a faculty of 124 academics, I understand how management works.

Those who need to know the vision, direction and expectations are well aware of it. I am confident that JS would not be in the seat he is in without the basic fundamentals of management.

That is exactly the point Mike is making.   A vision for the team is not something you just draw up and lock away.  We have witnessed multiple discussions about Barkley, and neither Schoen nor any of the other people discussing that decision ever mentioned how retaining Barkley or letting him go is related to the vision for building the team. In Mike's opinion (and on this, I agree), you make decisions in the context of the overarching vision and principles.  That is what we haven't witnessed.  It's also something that, if it were happening, the Giants would have been happy to show the world.  Plus, using those visions in decision-making is the whole reason you create the visions in the first place.

Quote from: T200 on July 11, 2024, 10:49:33 AMI disagree. I'm sure you have had many wonderful sandwiches. Do you know how each of those were made? Not knowing how it was made did/does not change the quality of the product.

"How was your sandwich, sir?"

"Well, I'm not sure. Can you tell me how it was made?"

It depends; if I were on a forum that was dedicated to sausage sandwiches, I could envision a thread on various techniques and which produces the best sandwiches. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 11, 2024, 10:53:39 AMThat is exactly the point Mike is making.  A vision for the team is not something you just draw up and lock away.  We have witnessed multiple discussions about Barkley, and neither Schoen nor any of the other people discussing that decision ever mentioned how retaining Barkley or letting him go is related to the vision for building the team. In Mike's opinion (and on this, I agree), you make decisions in the context of the overarching vision and principles.  That is what we haven't witnessed.  It's also something that if it were happening, the Giants would have been happy to show the world.

Personally, I'm not sure why it matters who sees it. For me, I'd rather keep things in-house and away from prying eyes.

I think the bigger issue around Barkley was price point - not vision. I've only seen episode 1 of HK as it's not carried here but it appeared there were meetings about replacements about who fits in as a lead back or do they go the committee approach. Various players were discussed in terms of future production and price point eg Jacobs had a down year because of the hold out etc.

Lombardi is just trying to stay relevant. He can't get a job with a NFL team anymore so now he is part of the social media world where you can say whatever you want without much repercussions.

And what better way to stay relevant than continuously attacking a top 5 fn base franchise in the biggest market?

If he did something like this about the raiders, chargers, browns, panthers - no one would care.

He's playing the game and like his GM career - he sucks at it.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on July 11, 2024, 10:58:15 AMPersonally, I'm not sure why it matters who sees it. For me, I'd rather keep things in-house and away from prying eyes.

I think the bigger issue around Barkley was price point - not vision. I've only seen episode 1 of HK as it's not carried here but it appeared there were meetings about replacements about who fits in as a lead back or do they go the committee approach. Various players were discussed in terms of future production and price point eg Jacobs had a down year because of the hold out etc.

Teams have 3 limited resources when it comes to roster building:

1)  Salary cap

2) Draft resources

3) Roster space

Obviously, teams can get a boost from free assets like undrafted rookies and waived players, but it's mostly about those three core resources.

When it comes to Barkley there are two issues.  The first is your expectations of how he will play moving forward.  It seems Schoen has his doubts about how well Barkley sustains his success.  The second issue is how much you pay him.  The impression so far is that the Giants don't want to spend that much money for Barkley (and, by extension, how much your salary cap you want to devote to the RB position). 

If the Giants were debating in the context of team-building vision, you wouldn't have had Mara's nephew ask what the team's identity is if Barkley had left.  Tim McDonnell, as Director of Player Personnel, should have known what the vision was for the team's identity.  The question he posed shouldn't have been what the team identity would be; it should have been how does Barkley help achieve that identity.

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 11, 2024, 10:54:46 AMIt depends; if I were on a forum that was dedicated to sausage sandwiches, I could envision a thread on various techniques and which produces the best sandwiches. 

   

In all seriousness, I think there are two separate issues:

1 - I agree that the process for building a team is a factor in its success but it is not *THE* determining factor.

2 - As the receivers of the product, we can determine whether it is good or not based on the results; how the product was put together does not factor into our evaluation of the results.

Barkley was the face of the franchise in his time here. He was the offense.

With him gone, I think there is a clear pivot to a pass-first offence; based on Nabers, Wan Dale and Hyatt being drafted not to mention the re-signing of Slayton last year.

That's how I see it. If the Director of player personnel sees it differently, or doesn't understand that - it's on him.

Quote from: T200 on July 11, 2024, 11:10:21 AM   

In all seriousness, I think there are two separate issues:

1 - I agree that the process for building a team is a factor in its success but it is not *THE* determining factor.

2 - As the receivers of the product, we can determine whether it is good or not based on the results; how the product was put together does not factor into our evaluation of the results.

Tim,

I am always mindful of the differences between results and process. Football has a considerable amount of luck.  You have injuries, the bounce of the ball, the strength of schedule, weather, freak occurrences, and so on that all impact a team's fortunes.  What can be controlled is the process.  A good process doesn't ensure good results (and to a degree, the reverse is also true), but it increases your odds of good results.  Teams with good processes may not win the Super Bowl, but they tend to be the teams that are regularly in contention.