Big Blue Huddle

Here is the thing, Paterson talked all sorts of ugly crap about Daniel Jones (see the image below).  The problem is that, factually speaking, Paterson is full of crap and lying his ass off.  Paterson was part of the 13-4 Vikings team that got their asses kicked by that QB he was insulting.  If Paterson wasn't lying a team led by Daniel Jones wouldn't have been able to administer an ass-kicking in his home dome which is very loud and hostile to visiting teams.

I don't see it as hating on Jones. Quite honestly, he's said nothing that hasn't been said here. Only difference is we're fans and he played against him. Regardless of the outcome of the games, I think his statements have merit. Not just because I agree with some of what he says, but if you look at the body of Jones's career, he has a handful of standout games.

If Jones was drafted by a different team and had the same career as he's had with the Giants, would we want him via trade or free agency to be our starter for the next 5-10 years?

I also don't think he said anything out of pocket here.  It's all pretty accurate.  Yea Jones beat that miserable Vikings defense but he was aging by then and the defense as a whole was one of the worst in recent memory.  He's saying when you watch the film there's not a lot there to scare a defense and he's probably right.

Quote from: T200 on July 11, 2024, 03:07:30 PMI don't see it as hating on Jones. Quite honestly, he's said nothing that hasn't been said here. Only difference is we're fans and he played against him. Regardless of the outcome of the games, I think his statements have merit. Not just because I agree with some of what he says, but if you look at the body of Jones's career, he has a handful of standout games.

If Jones was drafted by a different team and had the same career as he's had with the Giants, would we want him via trade or free agency to be our starter for the next 5-10 years?

Sorry, Tim but the QB he described could not go up in a hostile dome against his team (which was 13-4) and put up these sorts of numbers.  It's impossible the only conclusion is the man is lying (since he claimed he was basing things on his direct observations)

Here is what he observed:  a QB rating of 114.1, a QBR of 82.5, and a PFF grade of 80.9, throwing for 301 yards, two TDs, and  rushing for 78 yards

Quote from: Gmo11 on July 11, 2024, 03:16:04 PMI also don't think he said anything out of pocket here.  It's all pretty accurate.  Yea Jones beat that miserable Vikings defense but he was aging by then and the defense as a whole was one of the worst in recent memory.  He's saying when you watch the film there's not a lot there to scare a defense and he's probably right.

Sorry, you don't watch a QB do this to your 13-4 team (that was playing in a loud dome that handicapped opposing defenses) - a QB rating of 114.1, a QBR of 82.5, and a PFF grade of 80.9, throwing for 301 yards, two TDs, and  rushing for 78 yards

Then claim you observed what he claims to have observed

Rich,

It's easy to pick apart the messenger but let's look at this from a different, outside perspective:

You correctly highlight the Vikings' 13-4 record. Out of those 13 wins, 12 of them were less than 10 points, an NFL record. The Giants had the 2nd-most single-digit wins that season. So you have two scrappy teams that don't give up.

The Vikings were also 2nd in the league in most yards given up (388.7 ypg). They gave up more points than they scored.

Jones had three 300-yard passing games that season. Two were against Minny.

The Vikings defense were hardly juggernauts. I'm not diminishing what Jones did against them but he wasn't exactly going up against the Purple People Eaters.

EDIT TO ADD: His third 300-game was against Detroit... the team above Minnesota that gave up the MOST yards per game. Take away those three games and his highest passing game total was 228 against Dallas.

Quote from: T200 on July 11, 2024, 03:41:02 PMRich,

It's easy to pick apart the messenger but let's look at this from a different, outside perspective:

You correctly highlight the Vikings' 13-4 record. Out of those 13 wins, 12 of them were less than 10 points, an NFL record. The Giants had the 2nd-most single-digit wins that season. So you have two scrappy teams that don't give up.

The Vikings were also 2nd in the league in most yards given up (388.7 ypg). They gave up more points than they scored.

Jones had three 300-yard passing games that season. Two were against Minny.

The Vikings defense were hardly juggernauts. I'm not diminishing what Jones did against them but he wasn't exactly going up against the Purple People Eaters.

EDIT TO ADD: His third 300-game was against Detroit... the team above Minnesota that gave up the MOST yards per game. Take away those three games and his highest passing game total was 228 against Dallas.

If you are going to break things down to this level, you should also note that DJ's outstanding performance (by any standard) that Paterson directly observed was in a big game setting. DJ was operating with the 24th-ranked pass protection (per PFF) and the 27th-ranked receiving group. Some could try to claim Barkley carried the offense, but in that game, Barkley's 53 rushing yards were a distant second to DJ's 78 yards.

Had Paterson not qualified his criticism as being direct observations, I would have a different take, but since he made that claim, it's pretty clear the man has an ax to grind in terms of DJ. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 11, 2024, 02:48:30 PMHere is the thing, Paterson talked all sorts of ugly crap about Daniel Jones (see the image below).  The problem is that, factually speaking, Paterson is full of crap and lying his ass off.  Paterson was part of the 13-4 Vikings team that got their asses kicked by that QB he was insulting.  If Paterson wasn't lying a team led by Daniel Jones wouldn't have been able to administer an ass-kicking in his home dome which is very loud and hostile to visiting teams.

What part of Peterson's comments were untrue? There is a reason why Jones is universally disregarded. He isn't a good quarterback. He probably could have been a solid one if he had be drafted by a less dysfunctional franchise but after five years we've seen his ceiling and it's too low to compete at the highest level. It was a gigantic mistake to give him the deal we did and IMHO it's a huge black mark on Schoen's resume.

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 11, 2024, 03:56:24 PMIf you are going to break things down to this level, you should also note that DJ's outstanding performance (by any standard) that Paterson directly observed was in a big game setting. DJ was operating with the 24th-ranked pass protection (per PFF) and the 27th-ranked receiving group. Some could try to claim Barkley carried the offense, but in that game, Barkley's 53 rushing yards were a distant second to DJ's 78 yards.

Had Paterson not qualified his criticism as being direct observations, I would have a different take, but since he made that claim, it's pretty clear the man has an ax to grind in terms of DJ. 

Rich,

He didn't say Jones played like crap against them. He said:

"... ain't nothing impressive about him to a defense. He's big and strong but he hasn't shown us arm talent, like, crazy arm talent."

I think that's a fair assessment. It sounds like you agree as well ("Had Paterson not qualified his criticism as being direct observations, I would have a different take"). It just rubs you the wrong way coming from him. 

Hold on, is this from Patrick Peterson?  That dude 100% absolutely has the right to give an informed assessment on opposing QBs he's faced and I guarantee his assessment is going to be way more informed than anyone on this board.  I see zero HATE.  And the fact that most CBs in the league would likely state similar things only bolsters his assessment. 

This is exactly what I have said all along
Jones problems are not ability or physical strength

He does not see the field quickly enough and does not process what he sees very well.  Then he hesitates to let the ball go.

A strong opponent rush flusters him more than it should.  He has issues avoiding the rush. 

Once in a while he has a good game, but he cannot sustain it. Most of his good games he does it with his running ability.

I realized long ago the Giants would not win until Barkley and Jones were gone.  One is gone and likely the other is going.  There is hope.  Gettleman torpedoed us for many years as Mara fell in love with both players and would not let them go.

Yes he beat the Vikings but what happened after that

Jones inability to sustain a drive wears out the defense (and Jamies leg) and causes the offense to become become disillusioned.  Barkley was little help also.  He was a feast or famine RB.

Its encouraging to hear an opponent confirm what I believe I am seeing.  The Cowboys were laughing at Jones last year in game and daring him to throw it.  It was humiliating

He looks the part, but looks are deceiving.  I hope DJ makes me eat my words but

Quote from: madbadger on July 11, 2024, 04:05:27 PMWhat part of Peterson's comments were untrue? There is a reason why Jones is universally disregarded. He isn't a good quarterback. He probably could have been a solid one if he had be drafted by a less dysfunctional franchise but after five years we've seen his ceiling and it's too low to compete at the highest level. It was a gigantic mistake to give him the deal we did and IMHO it's a huge black mark on Schoen's resume.

And @PSUBeirut


Paterson observed DJ put up in a hostile environment in a big game setting - Here is what he observed:  a QB rating of 114.1, a QBR of 82.5, and a PFF grade of 80.9, throwing for 301 yards, two TDs, and  rushing for 78 yards against a 13-4 team

DJ did that while supported by PFF's 24th ranked pass protection and 27th ranked group of receivers and helped by on 53 rushing yards by Barkley

Quote from: T200 on July 11, 2024, 04:08:17 PMRich,

He didn't say Jones played like crap against them. He said:

"... ain't nothing impressive about him to a defense. He's big and strong but he hasn't shown us arm talent, like, crazy arm talent."

I think that's a fair assessment. It sounds like you agree as well ("Had Paterson not qualified his criticism as being direct observations, I would have a different take"). It just rubs you the wrong way coming from him. 

Unless you are arguing that what DJ accomplished in an away playoff game with the support I listed wasn't impressive, Paterson was being less than honest to say he observed nothing special from DJ.

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 11, 2024, 04:23:34 PMUnless you are arguing that what DJ accomplished in an away playoff game with the support I listed wasn't impressive, Paterson was being less than honest to say he observed nothing special from DJ.

What would you find more impressive: Jones putting up those stats against the 2nd-best defense or the 2nd-worst defense?

In the Vikings, he faced the 2nd-worst defense. Ironically, the following week, he played against the 2nd-best defense in the Eagles. He was 15 for 27, 135 yards.

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 11, 2024, 04:21:13 PMAnd @PSUBeirut


Paterson observed DJ put up in a hostile environment in a big game setting - Here is what he observed:  a QB rating of 114.1, a QBR of 82.5, and a PFF grade of 80.9, throwing for 301 yards, two TDs, and  rushing for 78 yards against a 13-4 team

DJ did that while supported by PFF's 24th ranked pass protection and 27th ranked group of receivers and helped by on 53 rushing yards by Barkley

With all due respect you are way too sensitive when it comes to criticism of Daniel Jones. I also wonder what other games Peterson has played against DJ and how those factored into his assessment. But regardless, Peterson is absolutely qualified to give assessments on QBs he has faced in his long career whether we like what he says or not.