Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: T200 on July 12, 2024, 05:13:20 PMThat was never the point of contention, rather the dismissal of a POV of a former pro bowl defender simply because his team lost to Jones.

I think if Peterson heaped praise on DJ's performance, it would be better received by some.

So, in one scenario, his views are dismissed but flip it and it would be taken much better. 🤔

We have seen people dismiss a long-time NFL front-office guy because he says negative things about the Giants. Hell, Brandon Jacobs said positive things about Daniel Jones, but the legions of fans are pumping up the lone opinion of a less-than-honest player (based on what we know he has witnessed) because it provides confirmation to their preconceived notions.

In the actual interview, Bradon Jacobs says he can't speak on DJ's processing because he "didn't play with him" and "wasn't in the locker room with him," and he hadn't heard what he was instructed to do.  Again, far too many are crediting Peterson for insights he simply doesn't have.

Rather than claiming that Paterson's less than honest (because we know he witnessed an impressive performance and he is unable to know what he claimed to know) is being well received by some because we are all prone to confirmation bias.

I just reviewed this thread because I think it is an interesting one.

I know some do, but I personally am not one to dismiss what Jones did in the Minnesota playoff game. I know many try to chip away at his accomplishments in that game because Minnesota did not have a strong defense that year, which they certainly did not. But it's still an NFL defense, it was still a road playoff game against a 13-4 team, and Jones was objectively excellent in that game. Consider what the following NFL QBs did with their arm against this terrible defense that same season:


(1) Aaron Rodgers (Sep 11): 22/34, 195 yards, 5.7 YPA, 0 touchdowns, 1 INT, 67.6 QB rating.

(2) Josh Allen (Nov 13): 29/43, 330 yards, 1 TD, 2 INTs, 78.6 QB rating


These examples do not in any way prove that the Minny defense was not bad. We know it was bad. What they prove though, is that it's not an automatic given that a QB, any QB, was just going to light it up with ease anytime he faced this defense. That is never a given in the NFL.

I think trying to throw shade on Daniel Jones' performance in the Minnesota playoff game is a forced and fairly misguided take that actually misses the real issues with Jones. What that game did, for me at least, is remind me that Jones is not completely, 100% incapable of having a good game. And I frankly knew that about him before that game. I have seen Jones have several very good or perhaps even excellent games before. It is not 100% outside of his ability to come up with one.

What seems outside of his ability though is to be consistently very good or even consistently good for a whole season, let alone multiple seasons. And that observation is now applicable to a very substantial sample size. That, to me, is the problem with him. Along with his inability to stay healthy, which only exacerbates that problem.

I know some will point to the 2022 season as evidence against what I just said above, but I will never be convinced that a 3200 passing yard, 15 passing TD a season, leading to the offense being in the bottom third of the league in passing statistics, is good by modern standards. If people want to believe it is, that is totally fine and they are obviously free to do so, but I simply won't be convinced of it, and I don't want to have a debate about it because it's a tired, old topic here and it is really not the point of this post.

So, back to the main point, I have no problem characterizing the win in Minnesota as an excellent game for Jones in a very big spot. It was definitely that, and it was very impressive. My problem is that he very rarely does this. I think one can count the number of games in five seasons that were roughly similar or better to this one on one hand. And it's not like the Vikings were the only weak defense he has faced. Not by a long shot.

So again, the issue, for me at least, with Jones is not that he is never, ever capable of having a good game. That would not be a true statement, because I have watched him do it before. The issue is that games like this are very rare, and all the litany of circumstantial explanations that people like to throw out to justify Jones' consistent lack of production are not sufficient, in my view at least, to justify this issue.

In fact, if those explanations were 100% the only reason he has not been better, then I actually have a problem understanding how it has been possible for him to have even ANY of these very good games. If the O line and receivers and play calling etc are all so bad that he literally has no chance, then how was it possible for the Minnesota playoff game or, say, the Saints game on October 3, 2021 to even have happened at all?

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 13, 2024, 08:55:46 AMI just reviewed this thread because I think it is an interesting one.

I know some do, but I personally am not one to dismiss what Jones did in the Minnesota playoff game. I know many try to chip away at his accomplishments in that game because Minnesota did not have a strong defense that year, which they certainly did not. But it's still an NFL defense, it was still a road playoff game against a 13-4 team, and Jones was objectively excellent in that game. Consider what the following NFL QBs did with their arm against this terrible defense that same season:


(1) Aaron Rodgers (Sep 11): 22/34, 195 yards, 5.7 YPA, 0 touchdowns, 1 INT, 67.6 QB rating.

(2) Josh Allen (Nov 13): 29/43, 330 yards, 1 TD, 2 INTs, 78.6 QB rating


These examples do not in any prove that the Minny defense was not bad. We know it was bad. What they prove though, is that it's not an automatic given that a QB, any QB, was just going to light it up with ease anytime he faced this defense. That is never a given in the NFL.

I think trying to throw shade on Daniel Jones' performance in the Minnesota playoff game is a forced and fairly misguided take that actually misses the real issues with Jones. What that game did, for me at least, is remind me that Jones is not completely, 100% incapable of having a good game. And I frankly knew that about him before that game. I have seen Jones have several very good or perhaps even excellent games before. It is not 100% outside of his ability to come up with one.

What seems outside of his ability though is to be consistently very good or even consistently good for a whole season, let alone multiple seasons. And that observation is now applicable to a very substantial sample size. That, to me, is the problem with him. Along with his inability to stay healthy, which only exacerbates that problem.

I know some will point to the 2022 season as evidence against what I just said above, but I will never be convinced that a 3200 passing yard, 15 passing TD a season, leading to the offense being in the bottom third of the league in passing statistics, is good by modern standards. If people want to believe it is, that is totally fine and they are obviously free to do so, but I simply won't be convinced of it, and I don't want to have a debate about it because it's a tired, old topic here and it is really not the point of this post.

So, back to the main point, I have no problem characterizing the win in Minnesota as an excellent game for Jones in a very big spot. It was definitely that, and it was very impressive. My problem is that he very rarely does this. I think one can count the number of games in five seasons that were roughly similar or better to this one on one hand. And it's not like the Vikings were the only weak defense he has faced. Not by a long shot.

So the issue, for me at least, with Jones is not that he is never, ever capable of having a good game. That would not be a true statement, because I have watched him do it before. The issue is that games like this are very rare, and all the litany of circumstantial explanations that people like to throw out to justify Jones' consistent lack of production are not sufficient, in my view at least, to justify this issue. In fact, if those explanations were 100% the only reason he has not been better, then I actually have a problem understanding how it has been possible for him to have even ANY of these very good games. If the O line and receivers and play calling etc are all so bad that he literally has no chance, then how was it possible for the Minnesota playoff game or, say, the Saints game on October 3, 2021 to even happen at all?

Jeff,

I think you have made a far more valid and fair point than Paterson (despite his NFL credentials).  It's not as Paterson claimed, a lack of talent.  Rather, the issue is, and still is, the ability of Jones (and obviously, his support or lack thereof plays a big role in this) to have more good games than bad. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 13, 2024, 09:01:58 AMJeff,

I think you have made a far more valid and fair point than Paterson (despite his NFL credentials).  It's not as Paterson claimed, a lack of talent.  Rather, the issue is, and still is, the ability of Jones (and obviously, his support or lack thereof plays a big role in this) to have more good games than bad. 

If you're just looking for him to put up numbers then obviously a better O-line and better receivers will help, but those things won't change his impact as an actual difference maker. If your O-line holds up and receivers are generally open, any QB can look good, but that's an exceptionally low bar and ultimately makes the QB just a product of what's around him.

All Peterson is saying is that Jones, like a lot of guys in the NFL, can beat you if you let him, but isn't a guy who will actively take a game from you. If you can't stay with his receivers, he'll look good, but if you can take away that first read or force him to make quick decisions, he won't.

Quote from: T200 on July 11, 2024, 03:07:30 PMI don't see it as hating on Jones. Quite honestly, he's said nothing that hasn't been said here. Only difference is we're fans and he played against him. Regardless of the outcome of the games, I think his statements have merit. Not just because I agree with some of what he says, but if you look at the body of Jones's career, he has a handful of standout games.

If Jones was drafted by a different team and had the same career as he's had with the Giants, would we want him via trade or free agency to be our starter for the next 5-10 years?

Bang. Thread over, for all practical purposes, three pages ago.