Big Blue Huddle

Quote"I'm just excited for him to get another opportunity," Waller said recently on SiriusXM NFL Radio. "I feel like he gets a bad rep. 2022, man, [he] played such good football. Last year was his first opportunity to get out there and play on the new bag that he got. It was tough for us as an offense to protect him, and you can't put any quarterback back there and not have any protection and expect them to really, truly thrive in the pocket.

"[I'm] hoping that they can get those things shored up and allow him to have an opportunity to show that he is a talented dude, he's very athletic, like get his opportunity to play the football that he was playing in 2022. I feel like that's definitely still in him."

https://www.nfl.com/news/ex-giants-te-darren-waller-believes-daniel-jones-can-return-to-2022-form-that-s-definitely-still-in-him

Rich: I see little to no motive for Waller to be nice to Jones... so his view carries max weight in my book. Bob

2022 form?  So, bottom 5 passing production?  He needs to do MUCH better than 2022. Without Barkley, we can no longer afford to run a safe offense that produces high passing PCT/QBR, but little actual production. This team needs passing yards and TDs, and a lot of both.

Quote from: kingm56 on July 22, 2024, 10:24:03 AMSo, bottom 5 passing production? 

I guess it really depends on the measure one chooses.  I mean, you go, QBR Jones was 6th in the league.   If you go PFF grade he was 20th.  If you use other stats, he looks bottom 5.  I guess if we want to make Jones look bad, we will select only the stats that make Jones look the worst.  I guess if we are trying to be fair, we will point out the broad disparity in ranking Jones' 2022 performance.

We need 2022 + a downfield attacking offense to succeed.

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 22, 2024, 10:29:46 AMI guess it really depends on the measure one chooses.  I mean, you go, QBR Jones was 6th in the league.   If you go PFF grade he was 20th.  If you use other stats, he looks bottom 5.  I guess if we want to make Jones look bad, we will select only the stats that make Jones look the worst.  I guess if we are trying to be fair, we will point out the broad disparity in ranking Jones' 2022 performance.

It's not about 'making jones look bad', as if such a thing matters in reality.  Instead, it's a reflection of reality; another 2022 performance, without Barkley, will not yield similar results.  As stated prior, the Giants need a lot more passing yards/TDs (ie production).

Quote from: kingm56 on July 22, 2024, 12:31:06 PMIt's not about 'making jones look bad', as if such a thing matters in reality.  Instead, it's a reflection of reality; another 2022 performance, without Barkley, will not yield similar results.  As stated prior, the Giants need a lot more passing yards/TDs (ie production).

I don't even think Barkley makes much of a difference here. Jones can replicate 2022 merely by doing what he did then. Playing incredibly cautious to minimize mistakes. If the Giants want to do anything, they need more than 2022 Daniel Jones.

I share the view that Jones will need to be more productive than 2022, mainly by attempting and succeeding on more downfield throws, in order to truly justify his contract moving forward. He'll also need to stay healthy this year. Otherwise I suspect he'll be cut.

That contract was given out with the idea/hope that 2022 was a stepping stone year, not a plateau year. Clearly nobody sane would pay $40mm/year for a 3200 yard/15 TD guy if they didn't expect that production to improve in imminent future seasons. If you're happy with that you can pay $15mm for that at most and spend $25mm plus on other positions.

Quote from: kingm56 on July 22, 2024, 12:31:06 PMIt's not about 'making jones look bad', as if such a thing matters in reality.  Instead, it's a reflection of reality; another 2022 performance, without Barkley, will not yield similar results.  As stated prior, the Giants need a lot more passing yards/TDs (ie production).

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 22, 2024, 01:08:00 PMI share the view that Jones will need to be more productive than 2022, mainly by attempting and succeeding on more downfield throws, in order to truly justify his contract moving forward. He'll also need to stay healthy this year. Otherwise I suspect he'll be cut.

That contract was given out with the idea/hope that 2022 was a stepping stone year, not a plateau year. Clearly nobody sane would pay $40mm/year for a 3200 yard/15 TD guy if they didn't expect that production to improve in imminent future seasons. If you're happy with that you can pay $15mm for that at most and spend $25mm plus on other positions.

I think if one is being fair, one needs to consider rushing yards by DJ and not exclusively passing yards.  It's also worth noting that DJ's passing production in 2022 was on the back of the 24th pass blocking unit and the 27th receiver group.   While I think getting back to 24th in pass blocking may prove to be an accomplishment this year, I feel fairly certain (barring injury) that this year's receiving group will be significantly better than 27th.

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 22, 2024, 01:19:25 PMI think if one is being fair, one needs to consider rushing yards by DJ and not exclusively passing yards.  It's also worth noting that DJ's passing production in 2022 was on the back of the 24th pass blocking unit and the 27th receiver group.  While I think getting back to 24th in pass blocking may prove to be an accomplishment this year, I feel fairly certain (barring injury) that this year's receiving group will be significantly better than 27th.

I do consider rushing yards, but my bigger point still stands. That point is that the Giants' front office did not hand out that contract in the spring of 2023 with the view that they'd be satisfied with the production of the 2022 season moving forward.

As for rushing yards, sure, they certainly count and matter, but this is a passing league. If your QB can't consistently and successfully make plays (including explosive plays, not just dink and dunk plays) from the pocket you simply cannot compete at a high level in this league. The rules have changed too much to be able to win a title with a ground based attack built around the RB position with a QB who runs too but averages about 6.5 YPA. That's just not going to get you anywhere interesting, and there is simply no reason to be spending $40mm a year on a single player if that's what you're getting. As said before there are QBs every spring who are half or even one third of $40mm/per who can make that happen.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 22, 2024, 01:30:00 PMI do consider rushing yards, but my bigger point still stands. That point is that the Giants' front office did not hand out that contract in the spring of 2023 with the view that they'd be satisfied with the production of the 2022 season moving forward.

As for rushing yards, sure, they certainly count and matter, but this is a passing league. If your QB can't consistently and successfully make plays (including explosive plays, not just dink and dunk plays) from the pocket you simply cannot compete at a high level in this league. The rules have changed too much to be able to win a title with a ground based attack built around the RB position with a QB who runs too but averages about 6.5 YPA. That's just not going to get you anywhere interesting, and there is simply no reason to be spending $40mm a year on a single player if that's what you're getting. As said before there are QBs every spring who are half or even one third of $40mm/per who can make that happen.

What happens if your "QB consistently and successfully makes plays" due to poor protection?  You all agree our O-line has been a major problem, but when you talk about the ability to throw the ball deep, you guys often neglect that to throw deep, the line needs to protect the QB longer.

As for running QBs, Lamar has earned two MVPs more due to his legs than his arm, so it's worth remembering that there is real value in the yards a QB produces on the ground as well as in the air.

The problem with using running yards as a measure is that's unwise to keep volume in the playbook especially for a QB with an injury history.  Run if the protection breaks down but those by design to a minimum.

In 2022, Jones was being coached by Garrett whose not close to being in Daboll's class.  Add in a better OL and a #1 WR, assuming good health, Jones passing yards should exceed 2002 by a decent amount

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 22, 2024, 01:35:03 PMAs for running QBs, Lamar has earned two MVPs more due to his legs than his arm, so it's worth remembering that there is real value in the yards a QB produces on the ground as well as in the air.

Lamar led the NFL in passing touchdowns in his first MVP season and threw for almost 500 passing yards more than Jones' best ever passing yards total in his second one. Lamar's QB rating, YPA etc were also dramatically better in those years (and most others) than anything Jones has ever done in those metrics.

So I would agree that Lamar's running ability is generally his number one asset, but that's because he's truly at that skill, not because he can't throw.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 22, 2024, 01:59:47 PMand threw for almost 500 passing yards more than Jones' best ever passing yards total in his second one

How does that remotely relate to my point about the value of QB rushing yards?

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 22, 2024, 02:06:12 PMHow does that remotely relate to my point about the value of QB rushing yards?

You seemed to be minimizing Lamar's accomplishments with his arm in his MVP years. I was pushing back against that.