Big Blue Huddle

Now that the series is over, how has the show changed your perception of the Giant's management?

Heavily edited IMHO.

Good poll idea. I voted for "about the same."

Before the show I liked Schoen but conceded he had made some mistakes. In the show I found him to be mostly energetic and engaged with his colleagues, and he seemed in control of things generally. With that said at times I was a little surprised by the degree of informality and sluggishness he was tolerating during important internal conversations. Overall, I still like Schoen, while admitting he has not been perfect, and the show didn't change my opinion.

Daboll I also like overall. I think he has had a bit of a roller coaster tenure so far in his two years here, and this is no doubt a big year for him. I found him to be a bit sluggish/dull at times in some conversations (I was particularly alarmed that he had no idea what Brian Burns' sack production was by April), but he also seemed very good in interviews and other instances. Overall my opinion of him is unchanged.

Mara was about what I expected. Not really overt, blatant, in-your-face meddling, but kind of making his opinions known but then qualifying them with the old "but hey, do whatever you think is best" routine. More or less what I was expecting. I thought Schoen managed him as well as could be hoped, from what I observed.

Brandon Brown impressed me for the most part. I thought he had a lot of good insights, he is clearly bright, he is always engaged, and he seems like an easy person to work with. Comes off as a straight shooter and a focused, knowledgeable guy. I had a strong opinion of him before this, and if anything he exceeded my expectations. I'm also aware that his days as an assistant GM with our franchise are numbered, and that will be well-deserved when it happens.

I generally liked the scouts. I can't say I was either blown away or significantly disappointed by any of them.

I couldn't really tell with McDonnell. He was hard to get a read on. He seemed a little less engaged than I would have expected, but I think that may be a stylistic thing for him and not necessarily indicative that he's not adding value. I think he's probably well aware that people are going to assume he's there because of his family ties, and maybe that keeps him a bit humble. If so, I can't say that's a bad thing. There's nothing worse than a nepo-baby type in the workplace who has an attitude that he can walk on water. I didn't get that at all with McDonnell. The opposite, if anything.

I'm probably leaving a few people out that I should include, but this post is long enough already. Long story short, my opinion of them is more or less unchanged versus what it was right before episode one.

I voted less impressed.  While Mike Lombardi is over-the-top with his criticism of NYG, his core issue is legit in my opinion.  A GM needs to be a team builder, not a talent collector.  A GM should have a vision of what he wants his team to be, and all moves should be made within the framework of that vision.  I saw no indication that Schoen has a vision.  He seems to make decisions on a case-by-case basis, which I don't think is an ideal approach.

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 31, 2024, 01:17:28 PMI voted less impressed.  While Mike Lombardi is over-the-top with his criticism of NYG, his core issue is legit in my opinion.  A GM needs to be a team builder, not a talent collector.  A GM should have a vision of what he wants his team to be, and all moves should be made within the framework of that vision.  I saw no indication that Schoen has a vision.  He seems to make decisions on a case-by-case basis, which I don't think is an ideal approach.

Rich,

Do you feel this show provided enough data points to be able to conclude or even strongly suspect that Schoen does not have a team vision?

I know Lombardi said that, but looking at Schoen's actions, rather than just this show, I don't really have that sense myself. I think Schoen has identified the myriad needs on this team and has tried to attack holes where he can and get foundational pieces. Where I think he has come up a bit shorter than we would all have liked is on his actual selection of talent to this point. Picking a highly touted OT when he picked Neal made sense. Picking a guard in the early third round when he picked Ezeudu made sense. Picking a wide receiver in the second round two years ago made sense. Signing free agents to deficient areas like the O line has made sense. Not paying up for a second contract for an injury-prone RB on a non-contending team made sense.

I don't think roster building instincts have been the issue myself. It has been more that the players he has added (and one that he retained for a very high price) have simply not been very good.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 31, 2024, 01:27:45 PMRich,

Do you feel this show provided enough data points to be able to conclude or even strongly suspect that Schoen does not have a team vision?

I know Lombardi said that, but looking at Schoen's actions, rather than just this show, I don't really have that sense myself. I think Schoen has identified the myriad needs on this team and has tried to attack holes where he can and get foundational pieces. Where I think he has come up a bit shorter than we would all have liked is on his actual selection of talent to this point. Picking a highly touted OT when he picked Neal made sense. Picking a guard in the early third round when he picked Ezeudu made sense. Picking a wide receiver in the second round two years ago made sense. Signing free agents to deficient areas like the O line has made sense. Not paying up for a second contract for an injury-prone RB on a non-contending team made sense.

I don't think roster building instincts have been the issue myself. It has been more that the players he has added (and one that he retained for a very high price) have simply not been very good.

Jeff,

In my opinion, we should have heard (at least once) Joe's vision for this team.   The purpose of the vision is to frame discussions.  There were far too many discussions about players and the like for the vision not to be mentioned at least once.   If you are not talking about the vision constantly, then any vision is worthless (in my opinion).  That all said, maybe he has one, but I would be surprised if that was the case.

I also don't disagree with your point about many of the decisions making sense.   The thing is, case-by-case can lead to what appear to be good decisions.  However, if you are not making those decisions in the framework of your overall team vision, the results may or may not come.  In other words, talent collecting doesn't mean you are making bad decisions.  It means you have not identified what team makeup you believe is successful and you are not really working toward that vision.

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 31, 2024, 01:39:26 PMJeff,

In my opinion, we should have heard (at least once) Joe's vision for this team.   The purpose of the vision is to frame discussions.  There were far too many discussions about players and the like for the vision not to be mentioned at least once.   If you are not talking about the vision constantly, then any vision is worthless (in my opinion).  That all said, maybe he has one, but I would be surprised if that was the case.

I also don't disagree with your point about many of the decisions making sense.   The thing is, case-by-case can lead to what appear to be good decisions.  However, if you are not making those decisions in the framework of your overall team vision, the results may or may not come.  In other words, talent collecting doesn't mean you are making bad decisions.  It means you have not identified what team makeup you believe is successful and you are not really working toward that vision.

What's the upside to communicating this vision publicly? Because I can't think of any outside of placating fans' over-active minds from making uninformed judgments. And at the end of the day, a GM shouldn't concern himself with that.

On the other hand, the downside is it gives all 31 of the other teams additional intel into your mindset and approach to building your team. That can be particularly harmful when it comes to trades or the waiver wire. If gives agents additional info to use as leverage against you in negotiations.

This strikes me as a textbook example of the less said, the better.

I feel about the same as I did prior to HK. All involved are capable of making the  decisions they were tasked to do. I did come away with feeling like, I, as well as others on this board, could do the job of the GM and others. The reason is most of what was said/discussed/strategized in the draft/FA I have seen discussed here on this board.

If schoen had a vision for the team would he share it on HBO? My thought is heck no, so does it matter?

Quote from: Jclayton92 on July 31, 2024, 05:09:20 PMIf schoen had a vision for the team would he share it on HBO? My thought is heck no, so does it matter?

The vision is usually not a secret.  Hell, everyone from the lowest clerk to the highest front office people should know the vision by heart.

We all knew George Young's height, weight, speed and build-in-the-trenches philosophy, the whole NFL knew.  Gettleman proudly declared his belief that you build a team to run the ball, stop the run, and get after the QB.

Quote from: Stringer Bell on July 31, 2024, 01:47:32 PMWhat's the upside to communicating this vision publicly? Because I can't think of any outside of placating fans' over-active minds from making uninformed judgments. And at the end of the day, a GM shouldn't concern himself with that.

On the other hand, the downside is it gives all 31 of the other teams additional intel into your mindset and approach to building your team. That can be particularly harmful when it comes to trades or the waiver wire. If gives agents additional info to use as leverage against you in negotiations.

This strikes me as a textbook example of the less said, the better.

This is something that should have been talked about so much that it would have been impossible not to make it to Hard Knocks.  Here's the thing: coaches and scouts have left the organization.  The other NFL teams would know if there was a team-building philosophy as former employees tend to talk (as do current ones)

No change.  Hard knocks is meant to be entertainment, not instructive. 

Quote from: AZGiantFan on July 31, 2024, 06:24:04 PMNo change.  Hard knocks is meant to be entertainment, not instructive. 

Spot on, sir; it's a reality TV show. People act differently when on camera, editors manufacture drama/entertainment, and the Giants clearly crafted their message. I enjoyed it for its entertainment value....it didn't alter my perspective of Giants management one way or another.   

Quote from: kingm56 on July 31, 2024, 06:50:06 PMSpot on, sir; it's a reality TV show. People act differently when on camera, editors manufacture drama/entertainment, and the Giants clearly crafted their message. I enjoyed it for its entertainment value....it didn't alter my perspective of Giants management one way or another.   

The cameras were continuous for months.  Also, it's not true that the Giants got to craft or control the message.  The could get things blurred or something deleted but that's all they could do.

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 31, 2024, 05:54:43 PMThis is something that should have been talked about so much that it would have been impossible not to make it to Hard Knocks.  Here's the thing: coaches and scouts have left the organization.  The other NFL teams would know if there was a team-building philosophy as former employees tend to talk (as do current ones)

Broadcasting your strategy and philosophies to your enemies is never a good idea. And again, there's absolutely no upside to announcing those things publicly. None.