Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: sxdxca38 on August 14, 2024, 02:32:07 PMIt also shows Giant fans shouldn't be so harsh on medical and training staffs as every team is dealing with injuries.

It's a violent sport and anyone can get injured at any time.

It's really not that simple.  Ligaments and cartilage are mostly out of the team's control.  However:

Barnes should be held responsible for the chronically injured (since he okayed them), muscle injuries (like calf and hamstring), and the time it takes for players to recover and return to play (and reinjury, like Cager).

Quote from: MightyGiants on August 14, 2024, 02:34:37 PMIt's really not that simple.  Ligaments and cartilage are mostly out of the team's control.  However:

Barnes should be held responsible for the chronically injured (since he okayed them), muscle injuries (like calf and hamstring), and the time it takes for players to recover and return to play (and reinjury, like Cager).

It's just my opinion, but I doubt that RB personally okayed some of the chronically injured.  A review of a player's medicals often entails evaluation of medical imaging and the last I looked, Barnes is not a Radiologist.  Now, if one subscribes to the axiom of the fish stinking from the head down, then holding him responsible for the errors made by the trained medical professionals on staff or as paid consultants is fair. 

It's also my opinion that players themselves are more often than not responsible for muscle injuries.  In my own experience, whenever  I didn't stretch properly or "cheated" while doing so, I had problems.  Watch any team doing pregame warmups and I guarantee you'll see more than a few just going through the motions.

Finally, if Barnes is to be criticized for a player's slow recovery, shouldn't he receive some plaudits when a player returns ahead of schedule (see DJ)

Quote from: Rosehill Jimmy on August 14, 2024, 03:17:29 PMIt's just my opinion, but I doubt that RB personally okayed some of the chronically injured.  A review of a player's medicals often entails evaluation of medical imaging and the last I looked, Barnes is not a Radiologist.  Now, if one subscribes to the axiom of the fish stinking from the head down, then holding him responsible for the errors made by the trained medical professionals on staff or as paid consultants is fair. 

It's also my opinion that players themselves are more often than not responsible for muscle injuries.  In my own experience, whenever  I didn't stretch properly or "cheated" while doing so, I had problems.  Watch any team doing pregame warmups and I guarantee you'll see more than a few just going through the motions.

Finally, if Barnes is to be criticized for a player's slow recovery, shouldn't he receive some plaudits when a player returns ahead of schedule (see DJ)

Did you see Ronnie Barnes in Schoen's office during Hard Knocks?  That was Ronnie signing off on the players the Giants can draft.  Ronnie also signs off on all free-agent acquisitions.  In addition, he will advise the team on the likelihood of current players staying healthy.   I don't think everyone appreciates the power the Senior Vice President, Medical Services/Head Athletic Trainer has in terms of who is added and who is let go.

If Ronnie red flags a player, a GM is unlikely to over-ride him.   Remember, the GM is spending the owner's money, and owners are less than happy if players that Ronnie (or anyone in a similar position on another team) said was a major injury risk are collecting a multi-million dollar paycheck while sitting in the whirl pool. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on August 14, 2024, 03:23:28 PMDid you see Ronnie Barnes in Schoen's office during Hard Knocks?  That was Ronnie signing off on the players the Giants can draft.  Ronnie also signs off on all free-agent acquisitions.  In addition, he will advise the team on the likelihood of current players staying healthy.   I don't think everyone appreciates the power the Senior Vice President, Medical Services/Head Athletic Trainer has in terms of who is added and who is let go.

If Ronnie red flags a player, a GM is unlikely to over-ride him.   Remember, the GM is spending the owner's money, and owners are less than happy if players that Ronnie (or anyone in a similar position on another team) said was a major injury risk are collecting a multi-million dollar paycheck while sitting in the whirl pool. 

I'm sure that Barnes was conveying the collective medical opinion of his staff.  I just don't subscribe to the notion that he and he alone is making the decision

Quote from: Rosehill Jimmy on August 14, 2024, 03:31:15 PMI'm sure that Barnes was conveying the collective medical opinion of his staff.  I just don't subscribe to the notion that he and he alone is making the decision

This argument reminds me of the one Todge has about how GMs are not fully responsible for the draft because he listen to his scouts and front office people.  No doubt, Ronnie's staff give him reports, and Ronnie uses those reports to inform his decisions.   In my mind, that doesn't lessen Ronnie's accountability.

Wow. That's a night in the ruts..or right in the nuts for the Norsemen. He had a very good debut, too.

Quote from: spiderblue43 on August 14, 2024, 03:44:34 PMWow. That's a night in the ruts..or right in the nuts for the Norsemen. He had a very good debut, too.

You feel bad for JJ and the fans.

The only silver lining is that long term, the repair is better than trimming as it's less likely to lead to arthritis

Quote from: sxdxca38 on August 14, 2024, 02:32:07 PMIt also shows Giant fans shouldn't be so harsh on medical and training staffs as every team is dealing with injuries.

It's a violent sport and anyone can get injured at any time.

People who are critical of the Giants' poor track record of keeping their players healthy are not denying that injuries happen on other teams. They are instead looking at at least a decade's worth of data and comparing that large sample to that of the rest of the league over the same time period.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on August 14, 2024, 06:21:20 PMPeople who are critical of the Giants' poor track record of keeping their players healthy are not denying that injuries happen on other teams. They are instead looking at at least a decade's worth of data and comparing that large sample to that of the rest of the league over the same time period.

From the 2010 season all the way through to the 2022 season the New England Patriots, and not the New York Giants were the most injured team.

Here are the stats of the top five most injured teams, and the Giants aren't even in it.

#1) Patriots 17.13
#2) Colts 14.35
#3) Packers 14.00
#4) Texans 13.85
#5) Jets 13.77
#6) Ravens 13.53
#7) 49ers 12.82
#8) Giants 12.69
#9) Browns 12.60

As you can see the Giants are ranked 8th, so compared to the other teams in the league, there are several other teams who are more injury prone than they are.

As I said before it's a violent sport, and Giant fans should be more understanding of that, as many teams deal with injuries all over the league.

Here is the link for the stats.

Injuries

Every team has to deal with it. The Giants are not alone.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on August 14, 2024, 10:53:35 PMFrom the 2010 season all the way through to the 2022 season the New England Patriots, and not the New York Giants were the most injured team.

Here are the stats of the top five most injured teams, and the Giants aren't even in it.

#1) Patriots 17.13
#2) Colts 14.35
#3) Packers 14.00
#4) Texans 13.85
#5) Jets 13.77
#6) Ravens 13.53
#7) 49ers 12.82
#8) Giants 12.69
#9) Browns 12.60

As you can see the Giants are ranked 8th, so compared to the other teams in the league, there are several other teams who are more injury prone than they are.

As I said before it's a violent sport, and Giant fans should be more understanding of that, as many teams deal with injuries all over the league.

Here is the link for the stats.

Injuries

There are many ways to measure injuries, and this one isn't a particularly good one.  It counts players who play on Sunday as injured if they were listed as probable or questionable.   Not a particularly sound way of measuring, in my opinion.

In terms of quality of measurement, I think the now defunct mandays lost was the best



https://x.com/ManGamesLostNFL/status/1617604238770569216

Quote from: katkavage on August 15, 2024, 07:32:30 AMEvery team has to deal with it. The Giants are not alone.

This is a bit of a False equivalence.   I just finished reading Coughlin's third book.  What struck me was how many players he lost to injury, ending their careers prematurely while he was HC of the Giants.   All teams get injured, but the Giants suffer more injuries, and the injuries suffered have the players out longer and are more impacted than other teams.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/40860002/sources-vikings-rookie-qb-jj-mccarthy-miss-2024-season

In my opinion, anyone who thinks the Giants' long-standing injury woes are just dumb luck or that "every other team deals with injuries too, and we are no different" is either not paying attention to the details, or is deliberately choosing to not pay attention.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on August 15, 2024, 08:20:18 PMIn my opinion, anyone who thinks the Giants' long-standing injury woes are just dumb luck or that "every other team deals with injuries too, and we are no different" is either not paying attention to the details, or is deliberately choosing to not pay attention.

Hi,

I hope you're not referencing me in this statement, because if you are it isn't very nice, as I haven't done that to you, so I would ask for the same respect.

To say that those of us are not paying attention to details, or are deliberately choosing not to pay attention, when we have shown data that says otherwise is not being objective and honest.

Here are the most injured teams from 2014-2018

Seahawks 1569
Patriots 1550
Colts 1437
Ravens 1314
Jaguars 1255
Giants 1253
Saints 1211
Redskins 1187
49ers 1137
Chargers 1091
Texans 1065
Panthers 1048
Browns 1030
Lions 1022
Jets 1014
Bears 1000

As you can see, the Giants during those years were ranked 6th in injuries, five other teams were more injured than they were.

Secondly over sixteen teams had injuries ranked over 1,000, so yes more than a few teams deal with injuries every year, not just the Giants.

It's a violent sport and sometimes injuries happen.

Link down below for data

Injuries