Big Blue Huddle

Jones is what he is. A QB that will make some plays that any decent QB should make, and make some real bonehead plays. The sum total has been a wash, or leaning to the latter. Is that good enough? To answer my own question, No.

Quote from: files58 on August 21, 2024, 05:31:48 PMJones is what he is. A QB that will make some plays that any decent QB should make, and make some real bonehead plays. The sum total has been a wash, or leaning to the latter. Is that good enough? To answer my own question, No.

Spot on! I don't need to analyze a QB entering his 6th season.  Nor do I need to find the silver-lining in a meaningless preseason game against 2d and 3rd stringers.  At this point, his strength and weaknesses should be evident.  For this season, I do expect him to post better numbers, relative to his surrounding talent.  However, fundamentally, he will still be the same QB he's proven to be for 8 seasons.  Regardless of the win total, I hope DJ and the offense generates some excitement, which has been missing from our games for 4 seasons. 

Quote from: Ed Vette on August 21, 2024, 04:13:32 PMLooking off the Safety would only be pertinent for deep passes in situations where the defense is in Man Coverage with either a single high safety or in Cover 2, where the safety would be the double Coverage over the top. Often, based on the Offensive alignment, the Linebackers and Safeties have their own Coverage responsibilities. When you have a Lone Set back and four WR's, potentially there would be 5 Receivers that need to be covered. Often Defenses are in Zone Coverage too, and they split the field as in Quarters Coverage.

The situation where looking off the safety would be effective doesn't come up as often as you might think. I see you have harped on this often. Jones was 2-4 on throws 20+ yards and had a grade of 92.6.

On the drop by Nabors, Jones did hold the safety on that 45-yard pass, but there is a point where he has to time the pass to the route. Since the safety was on his left hash, he came over the top but was not a factor in the play. On the Stingley Interception of Hyatt, Jones did look off the safety as he read his progressions left to right. It was however a product of his progression reads. No Safety nearby.

On that beautiful pass to Slayton to the Left X Position, Jones read right to left on the left side as the safety was shaded to the right two Receivers and immediately broke to that side, which was a key to where the pass would be going. The Houston DC didn't respect Slayton.   

On the Pass to Nabors, Jones was on the left hash Shotgun, Nabors was 2 yards to the right of the right side numbers and the Safeties were in Cover 2 with the right side Safety on the right Hash. Jones read his progression from left to right, which held that Safety until he set up to pass. The Safety was a non-factor. On that play, I think Nabors was the intended Receiver and by design, the read being left to right on a three-step drop, set up the throw for perfect timing. It was a well-designed play.

So on those four plays, only one required Jones to look off the Safety. One out of 18 Attempts. In Pass Attempts to Routes that are Daggar, Curl, Slant, comeback, and Crossers, the QB isn't looking off the safety. He's making his reads for a quick pass to an open Receiver.

I get it. Jones has Bird Dogged his Receivers at times and that's a Coaching issue, but snapshots should not put Jones in a box where he doesn't practice it. As if every pass requires him to look off the safety. Heck, at least he's passing downfield, which is something he didn't have time to do last season. Last season out of 149 attempts he was only able to throw 11 passes downfield or 7%, completing 2. But he had a PFF grade of 80 on those throws, so without looking at the film, it tells me that looking off the safety wasn't the problem.   

I should have clarified - maybe it isn't looking off the safety but I am meaning to imply he is locked on the receiver. I look at it as one and the same - which you have now clarified. I just find it so frustrating because 98% of the time I am watching on tv and I can tell for certain where the ball is going to go in terms of which side of field. Whereas when I watch Rodgers, I can only say the same 40-50% of the time.

My frustration is that our guy doesn't seem to make this a priority in the practice setting and we see CB and safeties constantly jumping the play and being in position for a quick hit - and afford our WR less separation as a result

Quote from: Trench on August 21, 2024, 07:12:00 PMI should have clarified - maybe it isn't looking off the safety but I am meaning to imply he is locked on the receiver. I look at it as one and the same - which you have now clarified. I just find it so frustrating because 98% of the time I am watching on tv and I can tell for certain where the ball is going to go in terms of which side of field. Whereas when I watch Rodgers, I can only say the same 40-50% of the time.

My frustration is that our guy doesn't seem to make this a priority in the practice setting and we see CB and safeties constantly jumping the play and being in position for a quick hit - and afford our WR less separation as a result

I would suggest you subscribe to the QB School on YouTube. It will give you a greater understanding of the position and alter how you view the game. JT does a great job breaking down plays. As for Oline play, Bobby Skinner of Talking Giants is the best out there.

I don't know how to post a link here but there is a video of Sauce Gardner yesterday which in my opinion was basically very disrespectful to Daniel Jones. I hope the man uses it as motivation

Quote from: Trench on August 21, 2024, 01:38:30 PMJust watched a clip of Rodgers in joint practice where he's dropping back to pass and looking off the safety and made a nice completion to Wilson.

Jones doesn't practice this. It's a huge reason why he isn't as successful as he can potentially be.

If you listen to the Simms video I posted, you will hear Phil Simms explain that DJ's second interception in the PS game was partially due to DJ looking off the safety.  Looking off the safety is not the perfect thing, you believe it to be.  While in some situations, it can help make a play more successful, it can also increase the chances of an INT.  In the case of DJ's second interception, looking off the safety meant DJ didn't have time to adjust the throw when he turned and threw that pass that was intercepted.  Had he "stared down the receiver," as you would like to say, he would have seen how well the receiver was covered and made a back-shoulder throw instead.

Quote from: MightyGiants on August 22, 2024, 08:47:00 AMIf you listen to the Simms video I posted, you will hear Phil Simms explain that DJ's second interception in the PS game was partially due to DJ looking off the safety.  Looking off the safety is not the perfect thing, you believe it to be.  While in some situations, it can help make a play more successful, it can also increase the chances of an INT.  In the case of DJ's second interception, looking off the safety meant DJ didn't have time to adjust the throw when he turned and threw that pass that was intercepted.  Had he "stared down the receiver," as you would like to say, he would have seen how well the receiver was covered and made a back-shoulder throw instead.

I still think if it is Nabors on the other end of that pass, he would have attacked the ball and possibly even have had a TD on the play instead of an INT. If so, we would be having a whole different conversation. Jalen Hyatt waited for the ball in a Rueben Randallesque approach to making the catch, and that was a weak play in my opinion. Jones is trusting that Hyatt will make that catch or prevent it from being intercepted. I don't know how much trust he has after that.

Quote from: MightyGiants on August 22, 2024, 08:47:00 AMIf you listen to the Simms video I posted, you will hear Phil Simms explain that DJ's second interception in the PS game was partially due to DJ looking off the safety.  Looking off the safety is not the perfect thing, you believe it to be.  While in some situations, it can help make a play more successful, it can also increase the chances of an INT.  In the case of DJ's second interception, looking off the safety meant DJ didn't have time to adjust the throw when he turned and threw that pass that was intercepted.  Had he "stared down the receiver," as you would like to say, he would have seen how well the receiver was covered and made a back-shoulder throw instead.

I totally disagree because I've studied the issue also and have heard many other professional experts say differently. Proof is in the pudding with elite QBs like Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers who are trained to not lock on a receiver

Quote from: Trench on August 22, 2024, 11:38:55 AMI totally disagree because I've studied the issue also and have heard many other professional experts say differently. Proof is in the pudding with elite QBs like Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers who are trained to not lock on a receiver

In the case of the Hyatt pass, Rich and Simms could be correct. It surely needed to be a back-shoulder throw and by the time he was looking in that direction, he didn't have enough time to hold off the throw as the Pass Rush was closing in on him. Although I will say that I have watched the all-22. The ball was snapped on the left hash, and it was Trips Right, with no Receiver on the Left side of the Formation. For some reason, Jones took a long look to the left side and unless he expected WDR to break to that side, I don't know what he was looking at. Robinson ran a Post and was the second read but should have been the first read. It made the safety cover WDR over the top. If Jones had started his reads on WDR, he would have had plenty of time to see the coverage more clearly on Hyatt, who had the sideline by 3 yards to make a back-shoulder catch. The pass went inside right to Stingley. The Safety was on the Offense's right hash and if DJ locked on to Hyatt, he had time to go over the top but I don't think he would have made any difference in the play. In my opinion, the play broke down with Jones looking left.

https://imgur.com/Z6k6Mqk
https://imgur.com/JvX1qV8

Quote from: Trench on August 22, 2024, 11:38:55 AMI totally disagree because I've studied the issue also and have heard many other professional experts say differently. Proof is in the pudding with elite QBs like Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers who are trained to not lock on a receiver

Not sure you are going to find a "professional expert" who knows more about quarterbacking than Phil Simms

Quote from: MightyGiants on August 22, 2024, 12:38:56 PMNot sure you are going to find a "professional expert" who knows more about quarterbacking than Phil Simms

Simms knows QB play, however, he still is in the Giant's bubble and that effects his opinions. I'm not disputing anything he said, but for true analysis I prefer to hear from outside sources with no ties to the Giants.

Quote from: katkavage on August 22, 2024, 01:14:09 PMSimms knows QB play, however, he still is in the Giant's bubble and that effects his opinions. I'm not disputing anything he said, but for true analysis I prefer to hear from outside sources with no ties to the Giants.

It's sort of funny; the reality is no one outside the building can fully know what is going on with a QB (if they claim or pretend to know, then they are lying).  So knocking people with access to the people inside the building, in my opinion, is counter-productive to getting to the truth

Quote from: katkavage on August 22, 2024, 01:14:09 PMSimms knows QB play, however, he still is in the Giant's bubble and that effects his opinions. I'm not disputing anything he said, but for true analysis I prefer to hear from outside sources with no ties to the Giants.

I do too, Kat; for the preseason games, I actually prefer to listen to the opposition telecast, which allows me to glean a different perspective.

Quote from: MightyGiants on August 22, 2024, 01:17:45 PMIt's sort of funny; the reality is no one outside the building can fully know what is going on with a QB (if they claim or pretend to know, then they are lying).  So knocking people with access to the people inside the building, in my opinion, is counter-productive to getting to the truth

MG, I never said anything you just spewed. I know you like to engage here but at least engage with truth. Never said Simms didn't know what he was talking about. Never knocked him in the least. I think we all have an innate bias to those we have a loyalty to. It's not a knock. Relax, my friend. All is not antagonistic here if we disagree. 

Quote from: katkavage on August 22, 2024, 04:34:38 PMMG, I never said anything you just spewed. I know you like to engage here but at least engage with truth. Never said Simms didn't know what he was talking about. Never knocked him in the least. I think we all have an innate bias to those we have a loyalty to. It's not a knock. Relax, my friend. All is not antagonistic here if we disagree. 

Kat,

I am not looking for a fight.  I spoke my opinion about denying the experts with insider information in favor of outside experts who have less information and facts to form their opinions.   Sorry if you consider my expressing my opinions "spewing" and not speaking the truth.

You are certainly entitled to your beliefs even if they don't match mine.