Big Blue Huddle

To answer the OP, if Jones is top 12 that would be a phenomenal outcome. That means we didn't blow a 1st round pick, and also that we are probably in the playoffs.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on August 23, 2024, 02:39:25 PMBut that isn't happening, and if Jones throws for 3200 and we still go 16-1 then what is the need for Jones? If we went 16-1 despite him wouldn't that be even more reason to let him go vs retain him? Seems like an argument against Jones and not for him that you are making.

A couple of points of note as context is key.

Scenario #1

If the Giants have the lead entering the 4th quarter, and the defense is creating turnovers or keeping the other team from scoring, with a bend but don't break philosophy, then trying to push the envelope by being aggressive in the passing game, just to inflate stats could create opportunities for more turnovers and interceptions, which would then allow the other team back into the game.

In this scenario a game manager in the 4th quarter would be needed to solidify a win, with stats taking a far second place. A great example of this was the Jaguars game back in 2022, where his legs helped solidify the win.

It's not all about stats, it's about wins and what the QB needs to do to solidify the victory for his team, and not about himself.

I.E the we vs me mentality

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on August 23, 2024, 02:10:50 PMTo answer the first question, cost is always a factor for me with any player in this sport, because cost is all about opportunity cost. If you're overpaying for any player, you're denying yourself the ability to spend more on other players.

If you are spending $40mm on production you can acquire for $10m or $15m, then that's $25m-$30m you're depriving yourself of spending on other positions. That's the only reason I brought it up. I would say that about any player who is not performing at a level that is in line with what he is costing against the cap.

You make good points and I agree with them.

I was more looking at it as cost and how it factors into performance, in the context of this thread.

The way I see it, a player's contract has no direct influence on his performance on the field. However, his performance on the field *does* have a direct impact on his contract.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on August 23, 2024, 09:15:50 PMA couple of points of note as context is key.

Scenario #1

If the Giants have the lead entering the 4th quarter, and the defense is creating turnovers or keeping the other team from scoring, with a bend but don't break philosophy, then trying to push the envelope by being aggressive in the passing game, just to inflate stats could create opportunities for more turnovers and interceptions, which would then allow the other team back into the game.

In this scenario a game manager in the 4th quarter would be needed to solidify a win, with stats taking a far second place. A great example of this was the Jaguars game back in 2022, where his legs helped solidify the win.

It's not all about stats, it's about wins and what the QB needs to do to solidify the victory for his team, and not about himself.

I.E the we vs me mentality

You mean the Jaguars game where we were losing going into the 4th yet daboll didn't let Jones throw the last 17 minutes of the game? That one?

I know you are trying to say it's not all about stats but what game are you watching? Everything these players do is about stats and production in todays game. Thibs had double digit sacks last season and most here still don't think he has arrived, Okereke was the 2nd best Mike in football last year, and everyone's expectations are to have nabors go for a 1,000+ immediately. Those are expectations of play based on stats and production. It does not change just because we are discussing the Qb, who until this point has not really had a productive season ever. Jones better be worried about me vs we because there is a very real chance the rest of the team moves forward without him next year.

Quote from: kingm56 on August 23, 2024, 06:51:24 PMJoe - He has Justin Herbert.  If the SD makes the SB, I bet Herbert will be in the top 10 of most passing stats.  Harbaugh can make all the statements he wants; I consider actions, and SD gave Herbert $263M, which IMO, makes him the focal point of the offense.  Still, I concur Harbaugh will put more resources in the RB than most teams.   

For anyone, who was the last true running team to win a SB?  Maybe the 2013 Seahawks?  Regardless, it's been more than a decade, which makes sense when you consider the 2012/13 rule changes to prevent concussions and improve safety (e.g. eliminate DB-WR contact beyond 5 yards, defenseless WR rules, and protect the QB) These rule changes fundamentally changed the game; today, teams pass far more than they run, as the rules favor the former.   

Yeah I am not suggesting a 3 yards and cloud of dust running offense but more of a 50-50 balance to set up play action.  His re-hiring of Greg Roman also suggests to me his desire for that.

Frankly I am a huge fan of 50-50 or 55-45 because of how effective great play action is but also because a D can't focus on playing safeties back and letting DL lean in and charge.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on August 24, 2024, 09:14:11 AMYou mean the Jaguars game where we were losing going into the 4th yet daboll didn't let Jones throw the last 17 minutes of the game? That one?

I know you are trying to say it's not all about stats but what game are you watching? Everything these players do is about stats and production in todays game. Thibs had double digit sacks last season and most here still don't think he has arrived, Okereke was the 2nd best Mike in football last year, and everyone's expectations are to have nabors go for a 1,000+ immediately. Those are expectations of play based on stats and production. It does not change just because we are discussing the Qb, who until this point has not really had a productive season ever. Jones better be worried about me vs we because there is a very real chance the rest of the team moves forward without him next year.

Yes, that Daniel Jones who became the first player in Giants history with 200 passing yards and 100 rushing yards in a game against the victory against Jacksonville.

He won NFC offensive player of the week and was excellent, as the Giants had won four consecutive games, on their way to their first playoff berth in five years.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on August 24, 2024, 09:14:11 AMYou mean the Jaguars game where we were losing going into the 4th yet daboll didn't let Jones throw the last 17 minutes of the game? That one?

I know you are trying to say it's not all about stats but what game are you watching? Everything these players do is about stats and production in todays game. Thibs had double digit sacks last season and most here still don't think he has arrived, Okereke was the 2nd best Mike in football last year, and everyone's expectations are to have nabors go for a 1,000+ immediately. Those are expectations of play based on stats and production. It does not change just because we are discussing the Qb, who until this point has not really had a productive season ever. Jones better be worried about me vs we because there is a very real chance the rest of the team moves forward without him next year.

The thing is that between Nabers and an improved O-line, his numbers should get better but that doesn't necessarily make him a better QB. There has to be more than just better numbers to say he's improved. There needs to be a willingness to push the ball down the field or throw into tight windows. If he's the same conservative QB but putting up better numbers because the talent around him is better then he hasn't actually gotten any better.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on August 24, 2024, 09:51:40 AMYes, that Daniel Jones who became the first player in Giants history with 200 passing yards and 100 rushing yards in a game against the victory against Jacksonville.

He won NFC offensive player of the week and was excellent, as the Giants had won four consecutive games, on their way to their first playoff berth in five years.

Wow that 200 yards was something else, a standard with which we should all be amazed. 200 yards is nothing, which is what everyone in this thread has been saying. 200 yards passing in a game equates to an anemic offense in today game period. There are backups in this league that have more avg production than Jones which should be alarming. Yet you keep flashing back to 1 year to try to hold Jones on a pedestal for which he doesn't deserve.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on August 24, 2024, 10:35:11 AMWow that 200 yards was something else, a standard with which we should all be amazed. 200 yards is nothing, which is what everyone in this thread has been saying. 200 yards passing in a game equates to an anemic offense in today game period. There are backups in this league that have more avg production than Jones which should be alarming. Yet you keep flashing back to 1 year to try to hold Jones on a pedestal for which he doesn't deserve.

What makes me crazy is that I think DJ has plenty of accuracy to make downfield throws.  It's his inability to make the right read, trust his ability and sling it that has been the problem.  Hope that gets fixed.

Quote from: Philosophers on August 24, 2024, 10:40:07 AMWhat makes me crazy is that I think DJ has plenty of accuracy to make downfield throws.  It's his inability to make the right read, trust his ability and sling it that has been the problem.  Hope that gets fixed.

Absolutely a mental thing

Agreed on Jones. The physical traits are not the problem. He has a good enough arm and is capable of making accurate enough longer throws. Those are not what is holding him back.

I'm puzzled to read that the Giants should be concerned about winning and not personal stats (as if the latter doesn't affect the former). But really... Doesn't that merit in favor of ditching Danny? The Giants are habitual losers with him at the helm.

This is not my argument, just the only logical conclusion I can reach from some of the positions advanced here. If the response is, "it's not that simple," - well, firstly, that was the exact point - but then we agree wins and losses are not the only thing players are judged upon.

I just can't wrap my head around an argument that makes the QB so inconsequential we need only look at wins and losses, but simultaneously insulates that player from individual responsibility for an underperforming squad.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on August 24, 2024, 12:58:26 PMI'm puzzled to read that the Giants should be concerned about winning and not personal stats (as if the latter doesn't affect the former). But really... Doesn't that merit in favor of ditching Danny? The Giants are habitual losers with him at the helm.

This is not my argument, just the only logical conclusion I can reach from some of the positions advanced here. If the response is, "it's not that simple," - well, firstly, that was the exact point - but then we agree wins and losses are not the only thing players are judged upon.

I just can't wrap my head around an argument that makes the QB so inconsequential we need only look at wins and losses, but simultaneously insulates that player from individual responsibility for an underperforming squad.

Excellent post.

If the real evaluation of Jones is whether or not the team is winning with him at QB, then why is he even still here? He is 22-36-1 as a starter in the NFL.

Of course, I agree that this is a poor way to evaluate a QB. There are a lot of reasons beyond the QB as to why a team wins or loses. On-field QB production matters, and statistics are a way to measure production.

Obviously statistical analysis is nuanced, and there is always context around statistics. I think any reasonable person understands that. But to say that all that matters is whether they can win with him or not, (1) that's an incredibly incomplete and limiting way of looking at a QB, and (2) if that's really the way people want to evaluate Jones, then the evaluation of his first five years in the NFL is clearly that he's very bad, given the record I cited above.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on August 24, 2024, 10:35:11 AMWow that 200 yards was something else, a standard with which we should all be amazed. 200 yards is nothing, which is what everyone in this thread has been saying. 200 yards passing in a game equates to an anemic offense in today game period. There are backups in this league that have more avg production than Jones which should be alarming. Yet you keep flashing back to 1 year to try to hold Jones on a pedestal for which he doesn't deserve.

Once again, I respectfully disagree with you.

The Giants scored 23 points in that game and beat the Jaguars 23-17.

He threw for 202 yards but ran for another 107 as well, equaling over 300 yards of total QB offense.

63% comp, 94.0 RTG, 88.0 QBR, 1 TD 0 Int, and NFC offensive player of the week.

If you think that is an anemic offensive performance while on the road in a hostile environment, well clearly, we see things differently.

And by the way it isn't everyone in this thread who agrees with you, Todge and others would beg to differ.

Enjoy. 

Quote from: sxdxca38 on August 24, 2024, 06:17:05 PMOnce again, I respectfully disagree with you.

The Giants scored 23 points in that game and beat the Jaguars 23-17.

He threw for 202 yards but ran for another 107 as well, equaling over 300 yards of total QB offense.

63% comp, 94.0 RTG, 88.0 QBR, 1 TD 0 Int, and NFC offensive player of the week.

If you think that is an anemic offensive performance while on the road in a hostile environment, well clearly, we see things differently.

And by the way it isn't everyone in this thread who agrees with you, Todge and others would beg to differ.

Enjoy. 

Jacksonville is hostile? The same place that for many year had blackout concerns?

Donyou consider all road games hostile?