Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 02, 2024, 01:44:47 PMIt took you 25 minutes to post one sentence (the post I was responding to was you responding to me with a single sentence)?

Oddly enough while you were accusing me of not being able to see a point, you seemed to completely miss my point that a QB producing with better support pillars, and being paid less, will likely not play as well when he is forced into the terrible playing conditions DJ has had to deal with for most of his NFL (and college) career.

I'm sure you're well aware of what post it was.

Quote from: y_so_blu on September 01, 2024, 01:31:06 PMEvery year we try to build around him, and every year (excluding the unicorn run in '22) it fails. So yeah, people do tend to draw conclusions based on actual results rather than excuses. They're funny that way.

Insisting that "Daniel Jones might still be the answer, you don't knooooooow" is just Stockholm Syndrome at this point. Grade-A teammate and human being, though.

Who have they had in the past few years that has left and shined somewhere else?  Which receiver has gone somewhere and taken off that we could say was being held back by Daniel Jones and the Giants offense?

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 02, 2024, 01:46:45 PMI'm sure you're well aware of what post it was.

Are you referring to your discussion with sxdxca38?

That wasn't a response to me (it was specifically responding to another member), what I said, or my name mentioned. 

I will note that quite a bit of production statistics were quoted. I did address how the support pillars greatly impact production stats.  I will confess I only glanced over the post.  As I mentioned, it wasn't directed at me, and frankly, I have had my fill of the stats-based arguments. Far too often I see stats brought up to support a position one has already held, rather than a quality statistical study to try and learn something.  It's not that I am accusing you of such actions; as I have already said, I didn't properly read your post.  I am simply explaining why I didn't read it.

The only excuses I see are the excuses for the horrendous OL and the completely inadequate receivers with which he has to subsist up to this point.  Every time I hear the excuse charge I just chalk it up to a lack of understanding of context.  If you want a good comparable for DJ you need look no farther than Eli's dad.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on September 02, 2024, 02:59:59 PMThe only excuses I see are the excuses for the horrendous OL and the completely inadequate receivers with which he has to subsist up to this point.  Every time I hear the excuse charge I just chalk it up to a lack of understanding of context.  If you want a good comparable for DJ you need look no farther than Eli's dad.

And everytime I see a rabid defense of DJ dressed up in pseudo-intellectualism that conveniently dismisses and demeans opposing opinions, I wonder: what are we allowed to have opinions on without being told we're just being ignorant? Hell, given the way I'm told that basically NOTHING in Jones' career can be used as evidence of what he is as a player--well, except the positive stuff, of course--it begs the question what can even be known?

It's absurd to me. It becomes worthless to try and discuss things like this because my position will be taken, distorted into something else, dismissed summarily, and it's simply not worth the time to argue. I accept people have different opinions. I don't dismiss people as ignorant because it makes my argument easier.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 02, 2024, 03:08:27 PMAnd everytime I see a rabid defense of DJ dressed up in pseudo-intellectualism that conveniently dismisses and demeans opposing opinions, I wonder: are we allowed to have opinions on without being told we're just being ignorant? Hell, given the way I'm told that basically NOTHING in Jones' career can be used as evidence of what he is as a player--well, except the positive stuff, of course--it begs the question what can even be known?

It's absurd to me. It becomes worthless to try and discuss things like this because my position will be taken, distorted into something else, dismissed summarily, and it's simply not worth the time to argue. I accept people have different opinions. I don't dismiss people as ignorant because it makes my argument easier.

Very well said.

The above, plus the fact that it has simply grown tiresome to talk about Daniel Jones (even without the snarky, condescending retorts you get from the same three or four people here anytime you express any opinion that isn't identical to theirs), is why I get much less involved in these types of back-and-forths than I have in past years.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 02, 2024, 03:08:27 PMAnd everytime I see a rabid defense of DJ dressed up in pseudo-intellectualism that conveniently dismisses and demeans opposing opinions, I wonder: what are we allowed to have opinions on without being told we're just being ignorant? Hell, given the way I'm told that basically NOTHING in Jones' career can be used as evidence of what he is as a player--well, except the positive stuff, of course--it begs the question what can even be known?

It's absurd to me. It becomes worthless to try and discuss things like this because my position will be taken, distorted into something else, dismissed summarily, and it's simply not worth the time to argue. I accept people have different opinions. I don't dismiss people as ignorant because it makes my argument easier.

As it relates to QB analysis/predications, the term "pseudo-intellectualism" is spot on.  The track record of those three of four individuals inserting intellectual superiority (as it relates to football) have been lackluster.  Thus, I don't take thier bias claims and/or digs at other fans' football acumen seriously. Its akin to a gambler in debt giving finical advice to a hedge fund manager worth millions of dollars.  It's amusing and gives me a chuckle. 

Someone mentioned this a page or so back and it really related to my thinking and maybe some others.

What if Daniel Jones was the QB, of say Washington? Would we be scared of him when we played them? would we never be worried about him beating us? or would we think WOW another poor QB and we should beat them handily?
I'm sorry if the people who see Jones as a savior in waiting when we give him everything any middle-of-the-road QB might want to help them be better. Just because he is the Giants QB and we are homers, some just refuse to see his faults as we would if he were QBing any other team. His faults are his faults and nothing can be done about them, no matter who surrounds him. If he were the QB of any other team we would see him and think of him as a lower-ranked QB who should never beat us.

Quote from: LennG on September 02, 2024, 05:36:30 PMSomeone mentioned this a page or so back and it really related to my thinking and maybe some others.

What if Daniel Jones was the QB, of say Washington? Would we be scared of him when we played them? would we never be worried about him beating us? or would we think WOW another poor QB and we should beat them handily?
I'm sorry if the people who see Jones as a savior in waiting when we give him everything any middle-of-the-road QB might want to help them be better. Just because he is the Giants QB and we are homers, some just refuse to see his faults as we would if he were QBing any other team. His faults are his faults and nothing can be done about them, no matter who surrounds him. If he were the QB of any other team we would see him and think of him as a lower-ranked QB who should never beat us.

Well said, Lenn. I would just add there's a vast difference between the optimism expressed by wonderful posters like @Bob In PA and @Jolly Blue Giant, and those who constantly tell others they're bias and/or engage in flawed Analysis, while simultaneously delivering impressively inaccurate analysis and predictions themselves. Football is inconsequential; so, being right or wrong is immaterial. However, if you're perpetually wrong, perhaps avoid challenging other posters' football acumen...just my 2 cents to add to your well articulated post, Lenn.

Does it really matter at this point. He either succeeds or fails, we'll know one way or another this coming offseason. People are going to believe what they want and this dance always goes nowhere because everyone is entrenched in their beliefs one way or another.

Quote from: LennG on September 02, 2024, 05:36:30 PMSomeone mentioned this a page or so back and it really related to my thinking and maybe some others.

What if Daniel Jones was the QB, of say Washington? Would we be scared of him when we played them? would we never be worried about him beating us? or would we think WOW another poor QB and we should beat them handily?
I'm sorry if the people who see Jones as a savior in waiting when we give him everything any middle-of-the-road QB might want to help them be better. Just because he is the Giants QB and we are homers, some just refuse to see his faults as we would if he were QBing any other team. His faults are his faults and nothing can be done about them, no matter who surrounds him. If he were the QB of any other team we would see him and think of him as a lower-ranked QB who should never beat us.

I fully understand being an irrational homer. Being a sports fan is an inherently irrational endeavor. But some take it to ridiculous levels, delving into odd conspiracies where the media has ganged up to convince you that Daniel Jones is terrible. At the end of the day, none of us would be scared if he was the opposing QB and none of us would want to actively pursue him as anything more than a backup if he was on another team and became a free agent tomorrow.

Quote from: LennG on September 02, 2024, 05:36:30 PMSomeone mentioned this a page or so back and it really related to my thinking and maybe some others.

What if Daniel Jones was the QB, of say Washington? Would we be scared of him when we played them? would we never be worried about him beating us? or would we think WOW another poor QB and we should beat them handily?
I'm sorry if the people who see Jones as a savior in waiting when we give him everything any middle-of-the-road QB might want to help them be better. Just because he is the Giants QB and we are homers, some just refuse to see his faults as we would if he were QBing any other team. His faults are his faults and nothing can be done about them, no matter who surrounds him. If he were the QB of any other team we would see him and think of him as a lower-ranked QB who should never beat us.

What if Washington had our last year's OL?  Would we be scared of them?

I have a huge problem with this thread as I've had with dozens of other Jones threads in the past few weeks.  In a short few weeks, we should know alot more about Jones.  He's got a good group of receivers maybe better.  He has a decent OL maybe better.  He has a really good pkaycaller maybe better.  And he's healthy.  Why dont we just wait a little while?

Last year Jones made a bad line worse and missed critical opportunities to buffer against their incompetence. 

when just assessing based on what he controls, he was bad.  Granted the line was much worse. 

It is not safe to assume just fixing the line fixes Jones. 

The front office told the whole world they wanted to replace him but not at any cost. 

Jones gets one more year and that is where it sits. 

There was an interesting dynamic.  The thread went from an intellectual (admittedly, this level of discussion angered some fans here) and facts-based discussion of Daniel Jones (albeit with Bob's tongue-in-cheek but slightly inflammatory title) to a page of football-free posts with the Jones critics bashing the people who don't share their negative views on DJ with the same vigor as they do our starting quarterback.