Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: babywhales on September 03, 2024, 07:52:03 AMLast year Jones made a bad line worse and missed critical opportunities to buffer against their incompetence.

when just assessing based on what he controls, he was bad.  Granted the line was much worse.

It is not safe to assume just fixing the line fixes Jones.

The front office told the whole world they wanted to replace him but not at any cost.

Jones gets one more year and that is where it sits.

Chris,

To offset the terrible blocking of an O-line, a quarterback needs to have open receivers to pass to. The Giants had PFF's 32nd-ranked receiver group (despite Robinson improving the farther removed from the ACL and Hyatt playing through his rookie season improving).  So the QB really doesn't have anything to work with to offset missed or multiple missed blocks when your receivers are not getting open either.

That said, I get where you are coming from.  After a few games getting the crap kicked out of him, and especially when he came back from the neck injury, DJ looked a bit gun-shy.  For me, that's one of the biggest concerns for DJ this season.   I think the O-line is improved, so DJ shouldn't be battered like last season. However, will there be lasting effects from what he endured last season?   How will DJ hold up to pressure, and will he be able to reset his internal clock?

Why is Daniel Jones the beneficiary of this then? So we have to put up with lousy football; pay a guy 40 mil a year because "he had a bad o-line and Pat Mahomes would not have done anything either blah blah." So what?

Why not Mike Glennon? Heck let's call Mike Glennon and tell him to un-retire so we can see what he could do if put in a perfect situation with a hall of fame TE ; a Hall of fame WR; and a Hall of fame coach.

Eli Manning didn't get this did he? Was that a good o-line? Was Erick Flowers a good tackle?

Heck why not hope and pray Tommy DeVito is Vinny Testeverde. I mean how do you know?

The fact is Danile Jones is just not a good QB. He is not worth anywhere near that salary and in a cap league that is critically important.

You could have drafted Bo Nix.  Heck even could have signed Jake Browning for a fraction of the cost and is arguably a better QB.

This whole idea that you were in the QB market but, only if a generation talent falls into your lap when you're picking not in the top 3 is voodoo GMing. it's also a cop out. It is really an excuse to stick it out with Jones more.  It's like saying I'll buy a new car if I win the lotto and then will buy a Mercedes otherwise, I'll stick it out with my 300,000 mile 20-year-old clunker. Like there is not a million option in between.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 03, 2024, 08:13:01 AMChris,

To offset the terrible blocking of an O-line, a quarterback needs to have open receivers to pass to. The Giants had PFF's 32nd-ranked receiver group (despite Robinson improving the farther removed from the ACL and Hyatt playing through his rookie season improving).  So the QB really doesn't have anything to work with to offset missed or multiple missed blocks when your receivers are not getting open either.

That said, I get where you are coming from.  After a few games getting the crap kicked out of him, and especially when he came back from the neck injury, DJ looked a bit gun-shy.  For me, that's one of the biggest concerns for DJ this season.  I think the O-line is improved, so DJ shouldn't be battered like last season. However, will there be lasting effects from what he endured last season?  How will DJ hold up to pressure, and will he be able to reset his internal clock?

I agree, however it is not that simple.

Example
Last season, Game 1 vs Dallas
7 sacks allowed
Unfortunately 3 those sacks were directly tied to Jones's shortcomings presnap.

He didn't do anything to help that line.  4 sacks would have been bad, no doubt.  7 is horrible- 3 of them were on Jones.
Failure to identify the hot read and shift protection to name two
And that is on him.  Those mistakes happen before the ball is snapped.
Jones made a bad line worse.

OF course he can help his line post snap but that would account for the pressure so ill keep it to things that happen prior to the snap / pressure on Jones. 

Quote from: babywhales on September 03, 2024, 03:45:11 PMI agree, however it is not that simple.

Example
Last season, Game 1 vs Dallas
7 sacks allowed
Unfortunately 3 those sacks were directly tied to Jones's shortcomings presnap.

He didn't do anything to help that line.  4 sacks would have been bad, no doubt.  7 is horrible- 3 of them were on Jones.
Failure to identify the hot read and shift protection to name two
And that is on him.  Those mistakes happen before the ball is snapped.
Jones made a bad line worse.

OF course he can help his line post snap but that would account for the pressure so ill keep it to things that happen prior to the snap / pressure on Jones. 

Chris,

From what I heard, In the Giants system, the center makes the protection calls.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 03, 2024, 04:49:36 PMChris,

From what I heard, In the Giants system, the center makes the protection calls.

Even a rookie, in his first game?

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 03, 2024, 06:03:59 PMEven a rookie, in his first game?

Yes, that is what I heard.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 03, 2024, 06:17:55 PMYes, that is what I heard.

Wow. Perhaps the offensive captains/vet leaders ought to have gone to the coaching staff and suggest a change (if they couldn't see the issue for themselves).

Does it say anything about Daniel Jones if he in fact is not in charge of setting protections?  Especially in favor of a rookie?

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 03, 2024, 07:17:57 PMWow. Perhaps the offensive captains/vet leaders ought to have gone to the coaching staff and suggest a change (if they couldn't see the issue for themselves).

The concept was that to win the starting center job you had to be able to make the protection calls.

Quote from: PSUBeirut on September 03, 2024, 07:27:35 PMDoes it say anything about Daniel Jones if he in fact is not in charge of setting protections?  Especially in favor of a rookie?

Not really, it's usually just a coaching preference

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 03, 2024, 08:05:10 AMThere was an interesting dynamic.  The thread went from an intellectual (admittedly, this level of discussion angered some fans here) and facts-based discussion of Daniel Jones (albeit with Bob's tongue-in-cheek but slightly inflammatory title) to a page of football-free posts with the Jones critics bashing the people who don't share their negative views on DJ with the same vigor as they do our starting quarterback.

In this I agree

I refuse to believe a starting QB in his 5th year in the NFL -- playing on the same team -- all of those years -- is not on the hook for pass protections.

I can maybe see if it is a rookie or back-up that hardly plays and/or inserted in the middle of a game, but a vet QB doesn't help with pass protection assignments? That just sounds wrong to me.

Even when Colt McCoy was the back-up QB ; I heard him say on nearly every down "We're Good, We're good" in obvious refence to blocking assignments in place.

It is also no coincidence that Daniel Jones does not seem to be adept at reading defenses pre and post snap ; checking out of plays etc.

Also did I not see a Tyrod Taylor sling a ball in like 2 seconds playing in that same o-line?

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 03, 2024, 04:49:36 PMChris,

From what I heard, In the Giants system, the center makes the protection calls.

Not sure if true, it would be odd, but I will not rule it out, the bottom line is Jones struggles to read the line of scrimmage presnap. 

Holds on to the ball with open receivers , runs out of bounds behind the line on balls that should have been thrown out of bounds, can not read or adapt to overflow Rushers, takes sacks from misreading defenses ex. not limited to looking for hot read but identified wrong receiver/wrong side of field, etc.. I know you watch the All22 - its all right there and the film is not good.  

Week 1 - Dallas 7 sacks - 3 were on jones's failures presnap at the line. 42% on the QB

week 2- AZ sacked 3 times .  I do not recall the specifics so I will simply say the were not Jones fault for argument sake.  30 % of the sacks on the season the QB's fault. 

Week 3 - SF 2 sacks . Same as above. 25% of the sacks on the season the QB's fault

Week 4 - Seattle - 10 sacks. 5 were on Jones .  

After week 4 8 of 22 sacks, 36% were on the QB.

The line was crap no doubt, but Jones didn't do them any favors and made a bad line worse. 

That needs to change in 2024/25 for him to have any chance at seeing 2025/26 in a Giants jersey 

Quote from: babywhales on September 06, 2024, 09:55:35 AMNot sure if true, it would be odd, but I will not rule it out, the bottom line is Jones struggles to read the line of scrimmage presnap.

Holds on to the ball with open receivers , runs out of bounds behind the line on balls that should have been thrown out of bounds, can not read or adapt to overflow Rushers, takes sacks from misreading defenses ex. not limited to looking for hot read but identified wrong receiver/wrong side of field, etc.. I know you watch the All22 - its all right there and the film is not good. 

Week 1 - Dallas 7 sacks - 3 were on jones's failures presnap at the line. 42% on the QB

week 2- AZ sacked 3 times .  I do not recall the specifics so I will simply say the were not Jones fault for argument sake.  30 % of the sacks on the season the QB's fault.

Week 3 - SF 2 sacks . Same as above. 25% of the sacks on the season the QB's fault

Week 4 - Seattle - 10 sacks. 5 were on Jones . 

After week 4 8 of 22 sacks, 36% were on the QB.

The line was crap no doubt, but Jones didn't do them any favors and made a bad line worse.

That needs to change in 2024/25 for him to have any chance at seeing 2025/26 in a Giants jersey

Thank you for the time it took for the number crunching here. I knew and have repeated the Seattle stats from the PFF podcast but didn't know the others. Were they from PFF or just your opinion of watching the game?

The answer to that doesn't matter - this is only a discussion board after all - but it's been my suspicion that Jones would have a degree of culpability for the sacks based on the Seahawks game. 

I have posted a study in the past that clearly indicates the QB is equal to, or more culpable for sacks than the Oline.  DJ get's sacked a lot because the Oline is terrible AND he's equally bad at reading defenses.