Big Blue Huddle

It has been a long off season for all of us I believe. And the DJ debate was & is bonkers. Sorry if I am beating a dead horse, haven't been on here for a while so just sharing my 2 cents.

My view has always been to support our team and the players until it becomes obvious that it is time to move on, when you put things into context.

To me the way people in general are treating DJ reminds me of how Eli had it before the SB, during the SB wins and after the SB wins. It always seemed to be an approximate 50/50 love/hate relationship.

Right now I believe this team is better than what we had 2 years ago and pretty much same FO, head coach and generally the coaching staff. Something we didn't see on this team for a great number of years.

If our Oline plays at least average and our WRs (besides Nabers) can have an impact with Hyatt in year two and Robinson having a full year + to recover then I believe this team can be much improved. Then add in the improved pass rush, LBS and yes we do have weakness in some areas.

Yet I feel if all of the above is average to solid, or even a bit up and down throughout the season/game, then this is the time to know if DJ is for real or not. If he plays well, then we have our future QB, if not, then it's time to find a qb or use him as a gap placement for a new QB but till then I will support him.

Also I had no issues with the Giants trying to potentially land a QB for a trade, because if you can find a gem (not saying DJ cannot become that) but it is a way to hedge your bet, and you can always trade one of the qb for picks down the road. Yet another major reason why I had no issue with it, is DJs injury issues which did make sense to have another potential top tier qb in here, if it became a worse case scenario.

Again, just my 2 cents. And lets go Giants, hopefully they can give us another great surprise year as they did two years ago.    

No choice but to support him. Otherwise it's hoping the Giants lose. You're right though, this is his last chance.

Quote from: DragonSoul on September 05, 2024, 10:15:11 PMIt has been a long off season for all of us I believe. And the DJ debate was & is bonkers. Sorry if I am beating a dead horse, haven't been on here for a while so just sharing my 2 cents.

My view has always been to support our team and the players until it becomes obvious that it is time to move on, when you put things into context.

To me the way people in general are treating DJ reminds me of how Eli had it before the SB, during the SB wins and after the SB wins. It always seemed to be an approximate 50/50 love/hate relationship.

Right now I believe this team is better than what we had 2 years ago and pretty much same FO, head coach and generally the coaching staff. Something we didn't see on this team for a great number of years.

If our Oline plays at least average and our WRs (besides Nabers) can have an impact with Hyatt in year two and Robinson having a full year + to recover then I believe this team can be much improved. Then add in the improved pass rush, LBS and yes we do have weakness in some areas.

Yet I feel if all of the above is average to solid, or even a bit up and down throughout the season/game, then this is the time to know if DJ is for real or not. If he plays well, then we have our future QB, if not, then it's time to find a qb or use him as a gap placement for a new QB but till then I will support him.

Also I had no issues with the Giants trying to potentially land a QB for a trade, because if you can find a gem (not saying DJ cannot become that) but it is a way to hedge your bet, and you can always trade one of the qb for picks down the road. Yet another major reason why I had no issue with it, is DJs injury issues which did make sense to have another potential top tier qb in here, if it became a worse case scenario.

Again, just my 2 cents. And lets go Giants, hopefully they can give us another great surprise year as they did two years ago.    

Thanks for sharing that well thought out post.  I agree; DJ seems to finally have a proper NFL QB support system.  This is his time to sink or swim.   Like you, I also believe in supporting the players on our team.   

I generally agree. I'm not sure that any members of this board want the Giants to lose though.

So I'm unsure where this idea has spawned.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 06, 2024, 10:16:57 AMI generally agree. I'm not sure that any members of this board want the Giants to lose though.

So I'm unsure where this idea has spawned.

There seems to be a need from some to define "Good" Giants fans versus "Bad" Giants fans (whether they're actively aware they're making such a distinction or not). "Bad" Giants fans include those levying any sort of criticism against Daniel Jones, presumably because in this sect's collective mind anyone offering that criticism wants the Giants to fail (somehow, someway, however reductive and incorrect it may be). In this way, one can simply dismiss the opinions of "Bad" Giants fans without engaging critically with them. Perplexingly, however, slandering other players (Evan Neal, for example, or the departed Evan Engram) doesn't seemingly disqualify one from "Good" Giants fan status or make one a "Bad" fan, nor are there people starting threads about how Neal should get 6 years to prove he's an NFL starter.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 06, 2024, 10:45:30 AMThere seems to be a need from some to define "Good" Giants fans versus "Bad" Giants fans (whether they're actively aware they're making such a distinction or not). "Bad" Giants fans include those levying any sort of criticism against Daniel Jones, presumably because in this sect's collective mind anyone offering that criticism wants the Giants to fail (somehow, someway, however reductive and incorrect it may be). In this way, one can simply dismiss the opinions of "Bad" Giants fans without engaging critically with them. Perplexingly, however, slandering other players (Evan Neal, for example, or the departed Evan Engram) doesn't seemingly disqualify one from "Good" Giants fan status or make one a "Bad" fan, nor are there people starting threads about how Neal should get 6 years to prove he's an NFL starter.

You are entirely right, HT.

I do find it interesting that there needs to be this divide, especially when it's pushed by only one side of the argument. I also think it's about strengthening future viewpoints e.g. "well, I said X player could succeed but he didn't have the support of the fanbase" instead of merely offering - "yeah, I had that one wrong".

It's seemingly like viewpoints on an inconsequential message board hardens the resolve to be "right". I think it's where the "pseudo-intellectual" (as someone termed it last week) spawns from.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. But one or another, I'm happy to see the end of this conflict on this board come the Spring.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 06, 2024, 10:45:30 AMThere seems to be a need from some to define "Good" Giants fans versus "Bad" Giants fans (whether they're actively aware they're making such a distinction or not). "Bad" Giants fans include those levying any sort of criticism against Daniel Jones, presumably because in this sect's collective mind anyone offering that criticism wants the Giants to fail (somehow, someway, however reductive and incorrect it may be). In this way, one can simply dismiss the opinions of "Bad" Giants fans without engaging critically with them. Perplexingly, however, slandering other players (Evan Neal, for example, or the departed Evan Engram) doesn't seemingly disqualify one from "Good" Giants fan status or make one a "Bad" fan, nor are there people starting threads about how Neal should get 6 years to prove he's an NFL starter.

Very well-articulated, H; however, I have to remind myself posters who fit this description are a very small, VERY vocal minority. 

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 06, 2024, 10:45:30 AMThere seems to be a need from some to define "Good" Giants fans versus "Bad" Giants fans (whether they're actively aware they're making such a distinction or not). "Bad" Giants fans include those levying any sort of criticism against Daniel Jones, presumably because in this sect's collective mind anyone offering that criticism wants the Giants to fail (somehow, someway, however reductive and incorrect it may be). In this way, one can simply dismiss the opinions of "Bad" Giants fans without engaging critically with them. Perplexingly, however, slandering other players (Evan Neal, for example, or the departed Evan Engram) doesn't seemingly disqualify one from "Good" Giants fan status or make one a "Bad" fan, nor are there people starting threads about how Neal should get 6 years to prove he's an NFL starter.

Curious, do you ever grow weary of demonizing people who don't share your negative opinions on Daniel Jones?  This is the second time this week you attacked members of this forum for the crime of not sharing your opinions of Daniel Jones.  Can fans be allowed to hold views and opinions that they are still willing to change their views (or fully form their views) and Daniel Jones based on what he does this season?

I am aware there are people who share your negative views on Jones and who will happily endorse your attack on people on this forum, but frankly, that doesn't mean what you are doing is right.  To suggest it only indulges in the ad populum fallacy.

@DragonSoul expressed his views in a thoughtful and respectful manner.  You (and those who support your attacks) really should try to do the same.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 06, 2024, 10:45:30 AMThere seems to be a need from some to define "Good" Giants fans versus "Bad" Giants fans (whether they're actively aware they're making such a distinction or not). "Bad" Giants fans include those levying any sort of criticism against Daniel Jones, presumably because in this sect's collective mind offering that criticism wants the Giants to fail (somehow, someway, however reductive and incorrect it may be). In this way, one can simply dismiss the opinions of "Bad" Giants fans without engaging critically with them. Perplexingly, however, slandering other players (Evan Neal, for example, or the departed Evan Engram) doesn't seemingly disqualify one from "Good" Giants fan status or make one a "Bad" fan, nor are there people starting threads about how Neal should get 6 years to prove he's an NFL starter.

Quotein this sect's collective mind

It's generally not considerate to call people who have a different opinion than yours a sect. We haven't done that to you so please do not do that to us.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on September 06, 2024, 11:21:55 AMIt's generally not considerate to call people who have a different opinion than yours a sect. We haven't done that to you so please do not do that to us.

We/Us?  I'm curious, who represents "we" and "us"?  Your choice to use those pronouns indicates you feel comfortable to speak for others and/or have aligned to specific affiliation/group; thus, giving credence to H-town's post.  BTW, when not explicitly tied to religion/politics, the term sect is not a pejorative.  It simply means "a group adhering to a distinctive doctrine or leader."  You clearly see yourself as part of a group, hence the pronouns "we" and "us." So, it appears the term sect is appropriate in this context...

To the OP - it was a well-articulated post; although, I fundamentally disagree that a professional NFL team needs 6 years and 77 games to determine the capabilities of their starting QB. Nevertheless, you're correct in this is his last chance...your post was very well done, sir.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 06, 2024, 11:20:25 AMCurious, do you ever grow weary of demonizing people who don't share your negative opinions on Daniel Jones?  This is the second time this week you attacked members of this forum for the crime of not sharing your opinions of Daniel Jones.  Can fans be allowed to hold views and opinions that they are still willing to change their views (or fully form their views) and Daniel Jones based on what he does this season?

I am aware there are people who share your negative views on Jones and who will happily endorse your attack on people on this forum, but frankly, that doesn't mean what you are doing is right.  To suggest it only indulges in the ad populum fallacy.

@DragonSoul expressed his views in a thoughtful and respectful manner.  You (and those who support your attacks) really should try to do the same.

You can feign moral superiority on this point, but the record of my comments is available to all and will prove you wrong. As you have done many times in the past, you misconstrue my comments (willingly or not). It's such a common thing I referenced it in my prior post (which you improperly label an "attack"):

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 02, 2024, 03:08:27 PMIt becomes worthless to try and discuss things like this because my position will be taken, distorted into something else, dismissed summarily, and it's simply not worth the time to argue.

Much like I expressed in that post, it's not worth my time to unbundle all the inaccuracies.

My point, regardless of your twisting, was that there should be no distinguishing--implicitly or explicitly--"Good" Giants fans from "Bad" Giants fans, whatever their opinions may be because its ultimately unconstructive. Call that an "attack" if you will--it says more about you than me.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 06, 2024, 11:47:15 AMYou can feign moral superiority on this point, but the record of my comments is available to all and will prove you wrong

This is from just a few days ago:

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 02, 2024, 03:08:27 PMAnd everytime I see a rabid defense of DJ dressed up in pseudo-intellectualism that conveniently dismisses and demeans opposing opinions, I wonder: what are we allowed to have opinions on without being told we're just being ignorant? Hell, given the way I'm told that basically NOTHING in Jones' career can be used as evidence of what he is as a player--well, except the positive stuff, of course--it begs the question what can even be known?

It's absurd to me. It becomes worthless to try and discuss things like this because my position will be taken, distorted into something else, dismissed summarily, and it's simply not worth the time to argue. I accept people have different opinions. I don't dismiss people as ignorant because it makes my argument easier.

What you are trying to do is not uncommon, and there is even an acronym for it

DARVO (an acronym for "deny, attack, and reverse victim & offender") is a reaction that perpetrators of wrongdoing may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior.   You attack others who don't share your view, while feigning being the victim.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 06, 2024, 11:52:01 AMThis is from just two days ago:

What you are trying to do is not uncommon, and there is even an acronym for it

DARVO (an acronym for "deny, attack, and reverse victim & offender") is a reaction that perpetrators of wrongdoing may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior.   You attack others who don't share your view, while feigning being the victim.

And I could provide you a definition of "projection" and "transference," but it would hardly get us anywhere. If you must get the last word, go ahead. I'm bowing out.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 06, 2024, 11:55:33 AMAnd I could provide you a definition of "projection" and "transference," but it would hardly get us anywhere. If you must get the last word, go ahead. I'm bowing out.

If this means you will stop attacking other forum members for not sharing your opinions, then good, great even 

Thank you

My first thought, "oh crap...another DJ thread". But it was so well stated that I was pleasantly surprised. Thanks for that well-thought-out and articulated post, Dragon Soul!

I just spent half the morning (on and off) listening to a podcast with three of my favorite athletes in the sports world: Eli, Jalen Brunson, and Josh Hart. Listening to Eli explain what it took to get where he was...even wondering if was going to have a 4-year career instead of a 16-year career after the wheels were falling off the team in 2007, when all he seemed to be able to do was throw interceptions

Regardless, the ups and downs, great games vs. ugly games, the trials and tribulations of a QB with high expectations is the life of a QB. I couldn't help but think of DJ when going through this similar scenario. What I learned more than anything, is the mindset of the QB and the expectations piled on him. I think the mental part is probably more difficult than the physical...especially in New York, where the only reward from the media is "hero or chump". It's a tough world to play in New York

Anyway, Brunson is a huge Eagles' fan, Hart is a die-hard Commanders' fan, so it was a terrific podcast to hear different views from three great athletes who star in New York. If you have the time (or can just play it in the background while doing what else you have to do), I think you'll enjoy it. Eli can be a real comedian, but in this podcast, he stays mostly serious and explains a lot of details about QB that the typical fan doesn't understand