Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: babywhales on September 06, 2024, 09:55:35 AMNot sure if true, it would be odd, but I will not rule it out, the bottom line is Jones struggles to read the line of scrimmage presnap.

Holds on to the ball with open receivers , runs out of bounds behind the line on balls that should have been thrown out of bounds, can not read or adapt to overflow Rushers, takes sacks from misreading defenses ex. not limited to looking for hot read but identified wrong receiver/wrong side of field, etc.. I know you watch the All22 - its all right there and the film is not good. 

Week 1 - Dallas 7 sacks - 3 were on jones's failures presnap at the line. 42% on the QB

week 2- AZ sacked 3 times .  I do not recall the specifics so I will simply say the were not Jones fault for argument sake.  30 % of the sacks on the season the QB's fault.

Week 3 - SF 2 sacks . Same as above. 25% of the sacks on the season the QB's fault

Week 4 - Seattle - 10 sacks. 5 were on Jones . 

After week 4 8 of 22 sacks, 36% were on the QB.

The line was crap no doubt, but Jones didn't do them any favors and made a bad line worse.

That needs to change in 2024/25 for him to have any chance at seeing 2025/26 in a Giants jersey

Chris,

Where did you get these numbers?

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 06, 2024, 11:26:05 AMChris,

Where did you get these numbers?

ITs four games and I gave a free pass on 2 of them, as well as, absolving Jones of making protection adjustments 

Watch the film,

Watch the film breakdowns,

Some things in film are truly unknowns, such as but not limited to play design, Oline assignments, read progressions, etc. others are not.

What I am speaking of I have given specific examples of mistakes and you will recognize those 16 plays, as you will also see the plays that are clearly the O Lines fault. 

Quote from: babywhales on September 06, 2024, 12:41:50 PMITs four games and I gave a free pass on 2 of them, as well as, absolving Jones of making protection adjustments

Watch the film,

Watch the film breakdowns,

Some things in film are truly unknowns, such as but not limited to play design, Oline assignments, read progressions, etc. others are not.

What I am speaking of I have given specific examples of mistakes and you will recognize those 16 plays, as you will also see the plays that are clearly the O Lines fault.

In the first game, you said:

Quote3 were on jones's failures presnap at the line.

What specifically are you referencing?   Are you assuming the center is making the line calls or DJ?   

The other thing I am curious about is this comment:

QuoteSome things in film are truly unknowns, such as but not limited to play design, Oline assignments, read progressions, etc.

Those are some critical factors needed to assign blame accurately.  How much certainty do you have in the statistics you cited? 

Not for nothin' but Dabes 'officially' taking over the play-calling and then getting maybe the best WR in the draft in Nabers must have been up many a night cooking up schemes that will show the world this team can score points.

I mean Joshie didn't look good until year 3 when they got Diggs as their true #1 either and people were questioning just how good Allen was. Guess who Josh's OC was at that time?

 I really hope it's something special to behold because the last Giants team that was really good at scoring points was probably all the way back in 2015 TC's last year before Mac-A-doodle took over the offense entirely instead of running Coughlin's game-plan.

It's what happens in threads like this that makes my criteria for a succesful season is one that, for good or bad, provides us clarity about DJ.  Which means that the OL and WRs play well and we see how he does with his first cast of competent teammates in the offense.  If he fails despite the support I'll be the first one to throw him under the bus.  If he succeeds I'll be happy that our draft and CAP resources can be devoted to building out the rest of the team so that the Giants can be not only good, but dominant.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on September 06, 2024, 02:30:28 PMIt's what happens in threads like this that makes my criteria for a succesful season is one that, for good or bad, provides us clarity about DJ.  Which means that the OL and WRs play well and we see how he does with his first cast of competent teammates in the offense.  If he fails despite the support I'll be the first one to throw him under the bus.  If he succeeds I'll be happy that our draft and CAP resources can be devoted to building out the rest of the team so that the Giants can be not only good, but dominant.

I agree 100%; give the man an NFL-caliber support system and see what he can do.  That should (or hopefully) provide clarity for all.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 06, 2024, 02:32:00 PMI agree 100%; give the man an NFL-caliber support system and see what he can do.  That should (or hopefully) provide clarity for all.

Speaking of this I LOVE this answer from the ball coach.

Q: Are you excited to actually have a real game and see what your team actually is?

BRIAN DABOLL: Yeah. Again, (we) put (in) a lot of hard work. Guys have done everything they could possibly do through OTAs, through training camp. Coaches spent a lot of time preparing for opening game. The unique thing about the opening game is you have 17 games plus additional information to look at. There's information overload at times as a coach when you're looking at things. Yesterday, with the day off, (we) tightened things up, coaching staff wise, minimized some of the things to make sure that we can go out there and play fast, know what to do and play physical. That's what really, I'd say, the first few weeks are in the National Football League. We've done everything we possibly can do. We'll have a good day today. Friday, situational football. Go out there and try to compete and play as tough, physical, and smart football as we can.


Sometimes THE WORST thing a coach can do is overcomplicate things so the players don't execute well 'cuz they way too spread thin or diversified

Heck, Seen it myself when I coached all different types of Sports

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on September 06, 2024, 02:47:52 PMSpeaking of this I LOVE this answer from the ball coach.

Q: Are you excited to actually have a real game and see what your team actually is?

BRIAN DABOLL: Yeah. Again, (we) put (in) a lot of hard work. Guys have done everything they could possibly do through OTAs, through training camp. Coaches spent a lot of time preparing for opening game. The unique thing about the opening game is you have 17 games plus additional information to look at. There's information overload at times as a coach when you're looking at things. Yesterday, with the day off, (we) tightened things up, coaching staff wise, minimized some of the things to make sure that we can go out there and play fast, know what to do and play physical. That's what really, I'd say, the first few weeks are in the National Football League. We've done everything we possibly can do. We'll have a good day today. Friday, situational football. Go out there and try to compete and play as tough, physical, and smart football as we can.


Sometimes THE WORST thing a coach can do is overcomplicate things so the players don't execute well 'cuz they way too spread thin or diversified

Heck, Seen it myself when I coached all different types of Sports

The Giants have an offensive line with three new starters: a new RB, a new TE (rookie), and a new number-one WR (a rookie).   With that in mind, I agree simpler is better.  The same can be said of the defense with new DC, scheme, and 3 or 4 starters.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 06, 2024, 02:51:13 PMThe Giants have an offensive line with three new starters: a new RB, a new TE (rookie), and a new number-one WR (a rookie).   With that in mind, I agree simpler is better.  The same can be said of the defense with new DC, scheme, and 3 or 4 starters.

Focus on a specific set of plays in practice, get them down and execute. Preseason is about figuring out what you do best and then focusing on that.

In the case of new players or a new scheme or both, paring it down even more to focus on what you can digest without sacrificing highest level of execution is important too!

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 02, 2024, 11:06:38 AMI see this as a bit of a problem in terms of evaluation. You're more than happy to rely on the two good years of his 5 year career and basically ignore what you see as the bad years.

In 2020, he played 14 games, threw for 2,943 years (210 yards per game), and completed 62.5%,  threw for 11(!) TDs and 10 Ints with a QBR of 54.0 (he rushed for 1 TD and 423 yards, fumbled 3 times, lost 2)

In 2021: he played 11 games, threw for 2,428 (220 yards per game), completed 64.3%, threw 10 TDs to 7 Ints with a 47.5 QBR. He rushed for 298 yards for 2 scores, fumbled twice and lost 1.

You've listed the 2022, so I wont repeat them, although the rushing really needs to be added on here with 708 yards and 7(!) TDs, 2 fumbles, one lost.

2023: We know the story, 909 yards in 6 games (151.5 yards per game) with two TDs and 206 yards rushing with 1 TD and 1 fumble which he recovered.

He is what he is. He puts up relatively pedestrian numbers and, in my opinion, was not worth the top-10 contract when it was offered, especially considering the holes all over the roster.

Those numbers are eating up 18.4% of the CAP, according to Over the Cap, with a hit of $47.8m


Some other relatively pedestrian numbers that you could have had.



Gardner Minshew
2023: 17 games, 3305 yards (194 yards per game), 15 TDs, 9 Ints, 59.6 QBR, 100 rushing yards, 3 TDS, 2 fumbles, 0 lost. Cap hit $8m, which jumps to $14m the following season.

2020: 9 games, 2259 yards, 251 yards per game, 16 TDs, 5 Ints, QBR 44.0, 153 yards rushing, 1 TD, 1 fumble, 0 lost

2019: 14 games, 3271 yards (233 yards per game), 21 TDs, 6 Ints, 44.6 QBR, 344 yards rushing, 0 TDs, 3 fumbles, 2 lost.

Total career (ignoring backup years in Philly), 40 games, 8,835 yards (220 yards per game), 52 TDs, 20 Ints, 49.4 QBR, 597 rushing, 4 rushing TDs, 5 fumbles, 2 lost.

In comparison, Jones has 60 games, 12,512 yards (208 yards per game), 62 TDs, 40 Ints, 1,914 rushing, 13 TDs, 14 fumbles with 7 lost. Are these discernibly better numbers than Minshew when you take into the cost of each contract?

Look at Baker Mayfield, prior to last season. People on this board never expected him to have the season he had nor parlay that into a big deal. But before his debut season in Tampa, so at the same time as Jones signed his deal his career was:

72 Games over 5 seasons, 16,288 yards (226 yards per game), 102 TDs, 64 Ints, with 660 yards rushing, 6 TDs, 15 fumbles, 3 lost. On the basis of this career, Mayfield signed a $4m deal with the Bucs with a cap hit of $2.3mil.

Those are just two contracts that were signed within the last 2 seasons. There could be others.

My point, if you got this far is that there are bridge QBs around. You do not have to issue a top-10 contract for numbers that be near-replicated by other pedestrian QBs. Granted, he is a far superior rusher than those two listed, and that is to his absolute credit.

Overall, this is just my opinion; perhaps I'll be called a 'hater' or 'unreasonable' or not being able to 'evaluate' the position, but my work is based on facts and figures.

You can disagree with the broad findings if you wish, but is it he really proven to be any better than those cheaper guys? They exist out there, and fair play to Mayfield for turning in an excellent season last year – I fully expect that contract to be an albatross as well.

If someone else wants to run numbers on other pedestrian QBs, the methodology used was to examine ESPN career stats and get the financials from Over the Cap.

Ed,

I appreciate the effort you put into this post. I do have one question, though. When you compare QB production on different teams, how do you account for the different levels of support (coaching/scheme, receiving targets, protection)?   

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 06, 2024, 07:50:11 PMEd,

I appreciate the effort you put into this post. I do have one question, though. When you compare QB production on different teams, how do you account for the different levels of support (coaching/scheme, receiving targets, protection)?   

Thank you, @MightyGiants.

To be honest, I didn't give it to much credence. But I went with the Jags having nobody you would call elite in terms of receiving targets.

I gave no thought to line or coaching support. Not in an attempt to be dishonest, I just didn't consider anything outside the numbers.

I do appreciate the reply, thank you.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 06, 2024, 07:50:11 PMEd,

I appreciate the effort you put into this post. I do have one question, though. When you compare QB production on different teams, how do you account for the different levels of support (coaching/scheme, receiving targets, protection)?   

Simple. Just ask Coach Parcells.
Did the QB win the game!

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 06, 2024, 08:19:13 PMThank you, @MightyGiants.

To be honest, I didn't give it to much credence. But I went with the Jags having nobody you would call elite in terms of receiving targets.

I gave no thought to line or coaching support. Not in an attempt to be dishonest, I just didn't consider anything outside the numbers.

I do appreciate the reply, thank you.

FWIW, in 2023 the Colts had the #3 ranking OL.

Jordan Love looked a lot like Daniel Jones last night as his OL struggled at times. He missed open guys. Under/over threw and threw behind guys who were open. Held the ball too long. Got sacked/took hits. Got hurt. He was still helped by a big play WR in Jaylen Reed who got open, made guys miss and found the EZ. That is what we hope Nabers can do.

Quote from: londonblue on September 07, 2024, 07:29:49 AMJordan Love looked a lot like Daniel Jones last night as his OL struggled at times. He missed open guys. Under/over threw and threw behind guys who were open. Held the ball too long. Got sacked/took hits. Got hurt. He was still helped by a big play WR in Jaylen Reed who got open, made guys miss and found the EZ. That is what we hope Nabers can do.

I agree their O line looked bad. Despite all that, Love still had a respectable enough game. 260 yards (7.6 YPA), 2 TDs, 1 INT, and that's with not playing 60 minutes, and he was up against a Vic Fangio-led D that has a ton of top shelf talent. I'm not sure how much that "looked like" Daniel Jones. If Jones has a game exactly like that against the Eagles this year, his more supportive fans will call it a big success, even in a loss.