Big Blue Huddle

DISCLAIMER:  This is after the first game of the season and commentary this strong runs the risk of being an over-reaction

As expected (considering DJ played one of the worst games of his career) there is an abundance of threads talking about Daniel Jones.   Make no mistake, the way he played yesterday gave no one hope that the team has their QB for now and the future on the roster.

That said, there are three positions in successful teams that need to have quality people:

1) General Manager
2) Head Coach
3) Quarterback

I will say that some special head coaches have the ability to spill over into the GM's realm and the need for a quality GM is lessened.

After 3 offseasons and after the first game of the season, I see zero indications that the Giants have the answer at any of the three critical positions.  As discussed, Daniel Jones looked terrible.  However, that shouldn't take away from the reality that the rest of the team played poorly as well.   The team didn't appear to be as talented as the mediocre team they faced.   That is on GM Joe Schoen, who is responsible for the talent levels of this roster.

It's beginning to look like Brian Daboll is more of the mediocre coach that seemed to characterize most of his career, minus the few years he was coaching Josh Allen.   The team looked out-coached yesterday beyond not being as talented of a team.

I am not a big fan of change for the sake of change.  That's a great way to stay mediocre.  However, I am not convinced that if you give Schoen and Daboll more time, they can or will lead this team to contention.  It's sort of ironic.   Under Schoen and Daboll, they have been constantly seeking smart, tough, and dependable players.  Yet, I am beginning to wonder if Schoen and/or Daboll are among the smarter GMs or head coaches. 

As for Jones, another game or two like that, and I think the team needs to seriously consider benching him, especially with the injury guarantee in his contract looming.   Unfortunately, early indications are not promising in terms of the next draft class being a strong one for QBs.

There is a small chance this team can turn things around.  How much is another issue.  As of this writing, I am not optimistic for this team's near-term or long-term future.  I just don't see any easy answers or a clear path to turning this franchise around.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 09, 2024, 08:11:04 AMThe team looked out-coached yesterday beyond not being as talented of a team.

Rich: The Giants WERE INDEED out-coached yesterday (by far) and you're the first to mention it.

I think I've read everything and hope I didn't miss someone else saying it, but that is my also main takeaway from the game.

The only possible qualifier would be this observation: two of the next four games are divisional (IMO each counts as 1-1/2 in the great scheme of things... so there are/were reasons to play yesterday's game like a fourth preseason game... which, unfortunately (and in more than one way) they did.

Bob

Good post, Rich.

IMHO, it's still too early to pull the plug on Schoen and Daboll. Schoen deserves the longest leash since he is the one primarily constructing the rosters. It's been said many times here that it takes a minimum of three years to evaluate a draft. He needs time to see how his picks pan out (pardon the pun). Additionally, he was left with a huge mess to clean up. That is taking some time as well. He's getting close as there are only a handful of Gettleman picks on the roster.

I've said it before and I stand by it; Schoen and Daboll need to be given a shot at having their own QB before they get the axe. I am more than willing to give them two years with their own QB to see if they can get this ship moving in the right direction.

Quote from: T200 on September 09, 2024, 08:20:23 AMGood post, Rich.

IMHO, it's still too early to pull the plug on Schoen and Daboll. Schoen deserves the longest leash since he is the one primarily constructing the rosters. It's been said many times here that it takes a minimum of three years to evaluate a draft. He needs time to see how his picks pan out (pardon the pun). Additionally, he was left with a huge mess to clean up. That is taking some time as well. He's getting close as there are only a handful of Gettleman picks on the roster.

I've said it before and I stand by it; Schoen and Daboll need to be given a shot at having their own QB before they get the axe. I am more than willing to give them two years with their own QB to see if they can get this ship moving in the right direction.

Tim,

If I take the QB out of the equation and just look at the running game and the defense, I do not see a better team than the one that got Gettleman and Judge fired.  I appreciate what you are saying about a QB, but they had three years to acquire one and they didn't.  So I am not sure how much I am willing to give them a pass hoping they take a swing and connect on a QB, absent any sort of indication that the team is moving in a positive direction.

Quote from: Bob In PA on September 09, 2024, 08:20:07 AMRich: The Giants WERE INDEED out-coached yesterday (by far) and you're the first to mention it.

I think I've read everything and hope I didn't miss someone else saying it, but that is my main takeaway.

The only possible qualifier would be this observation: two of the next four games are divisional (IMO each counts as 1-1/2 in the great scheme of things... so there are/were reasons to play yesterday's game like a fourth preseason game... which, unfortunately (and in more than one way) they did.

Bob

Including by Flores who should have been the hire in 2022. He had a real resume unlike Daboll. Watching the Rams/Lions I saw excellent coaching especially by the Rams. So much better than the Giants. Just competent as opposed to the opposite.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 09, 2024, 08:23:36 AMTim,

If I take the QB out of the equation and just look at the running game and the defense, I do not see a better team than the one that got Gettleman and Judge fired.  I appreciate what you are saying about a QB, but they had three years to acquire one and they didn't.  So I am not sure how much I am willing to give them a pass hoping they take a swing and connect on a QB, absent any sort of indication that the team is moving in a positive direction.

Rich,

I can't parse out the running game as it relies on the offensive line. To me, that has been the biggest issue on offense, Jones notwithstanding.

The QB issue is more nuanced and can't be summed up by saying they had three years to grab one. The reality is that they did not have the green light from Mara to move on from Jones on Day 1.

I'm not giving them a pass, as you say. It's more giving them time to do what they need to do. IMO, three years isn't enough, considering they had absolutely nothing to work with. I'm good with five years. After that, fire up the seats.

I have been all over Daboll for 2 years now....with a shaky pass for Shoen only because we do not know their scouting dept and how it operates.

Done with the shaky, this front office can not judge talent.  Heck, they are hit and miss (completely) on first round talent which should be slam dunk.

And yet I have this awful feeling they both get another year to right the ship, now with their drafted QB.  I pray I am wrong.

Quote from: T200 on September 09, 2024, 08:30:57 AMRich,

I can't parse out the running game as it relies on the offensive line. To me, that has been the biggest issue on offense, Jones notwithstanding.

The QB issue is more nuanced and can't be summed up by saying they had three years to grab one. The reality is that they did not have the green light from Mara to move on from Jones on Day 1.

I'm not giving them a pass, as you say. It's more giving them time to do what they need to do. IMO, three years isn't enough, considering they had absolutely nothing to work with. I'm good with five years. After that, fire up the seats.

Tim,

We saw on Hard Knocks that while Mara may give his opinion, he allows the GM to make the call.  So I don't think it's accurate to say that Schoen didn't have the green light to move on from Jones from day one.  In fact, considering they didn't exercise DJ's 5th-year option, I would say it's pretty clear Schoen was allowed to do what he felt he needed to do.

Quote from: katkavage on September 09, 2024, 08:28:41 AMIncluding by Flores who should have been the hire in 2022. He had a real resume unlike Daboll. Watching the Rams/Lions I saw excellent coaching especially by the Rams. So much better than the Giants. Just competent as opposed to the opposite.

Amazing how time can change the situation.  After 2022, with the COTY trophy sitting on Daboll's mental, Flores' lawsuit seemed like sour grapes.  After Flores badly outcoached Daboll yesterday, you have to wonder why they picked Daboll over Flores.

Did Daboll coach Jones into throwing passes 4 yards short or behind his receivers. Did he tell him to hit the DT in the numbers if at all possible? A merely semi-competent player at QB would make sooooo much of this stuff irrelevant. If you want to crush Daboll crush him for not walking into schoens office and threatening to quit if he tried to sign Jones long term.

Let few ask this: if Jones wasn't ready to go from his ACL so Devito started that game and the exact same thing happens do we say Daboll is the reason or do we say Devito stinks of course he's going to look like that? Because right now those guys are basically the same only one of them is making 40 million dollars for no reason.

Quote from: Gmo11 on September 09, 2024, 08:51:30 AMDid Daboll coach Jones into throwing passes 4 yards short or behind his receivers. Did he tell him to hit the DT in the numbers if at all possible? A merely semi-competent player at QB would make sooooo much of this stuff irrelevant. If you want to crush Daboll crush him for not walking into schoens office and threatening to quit if he tried to sign Jones long term.

Let few ask this: if Jones wasn't ready to go from his ACL so Devito started that game and the exact same thing happens do we say Daboll is the reason or do we say Devito stinks of course he's going to look like that? Because right now those guys are basically the same only one of them is making 40 million dollars for no reason.

Is Jones the only problem? Was the team well coached yesterday. Was the game plan sound? Were they prepared?

Quote from: Gmo11 on September 09, 2024, 08:51:30 AMDid Daboll coach Jones into throwing passes 4 yards short or behind his receivers. Did he tell him to hit the DT in the numbers if at all possible? A merely semi-competent player at QB would make sooooo much of this stuff irrelevant. If you want to crush Daboll crush him for not walking into schoens office and threatening to quit if he tried to sign Jones long term.

Let few ask this: if Jones wasn't ready to go from his ACL so Devito started that game and the exact same thing happens do we say Daboll is the reason or do we say Devito stinks of course he's going to look like that? Because right now those guys are basically the same only one of them is making 40 million dollars for no reason.

If you want to give Daboll a free pass for his poor coaching, that is certainly within your rights. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 09, 2024, 08:37:16 AMTim,

We saw on Hard Knocks that while Mara may give his opinion, he allows the GM to make the call.  So I don't think it's accurate to say that Schoen didn't have the green light to move on from Jones from day one.  In fact, considering they didn't exercise DJ's 5th-year option, I would say it's pretty clear Schoen was allowed to do what he felt he needed to do.

I agree that Mara allows the GM to make the call. But I also strongly feel that Mara makes his wishes known and that in and of itself puts pressure on his employees.

The passing on the 5th-year option, just like the two-year out in this contract, was a compromise of sorts.

Last, HK showed just a snippet of conversations that take place. We only know what they wanted to show us. The rest is hearsay and speculation. Some things can be pieced together. Mara has a history of speaking his mind and people take notice. That's undeniable.

Quote from: T200 on September 09, 2024, 08:54:40 AMI agree that Mara allows the GM to make the call. But I also strongly feel that Mara makes his wishes known and that in and of itself puts pressure on his employees.

The passing on the 5th-year option, just like the two-year out in this contract, was a compromise of sorts.

Last, HK showed just a snippet of conversations that take place. We only know what they wanted to show us. The rest is hearsay and speculation. Some things can be pieced together. Mara has a history of speaking his mind and people take notice. That's undeniable.

Tim,

It was pretty clear Mara didn't want to move on from Barkley and that he definitely didn't want to see Barkley in an Eagles uniform.   So it appears that Schoen is more than comfortable with moving in directions his owner doesn't want to move.

The Giants always talk about a change of culture. Well the culture never changes at the very top. Maybe that's where the problems begin.