Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 10, 2024, 09:44:31 AMIn previous commentaries, Mike Lombardi went into more detail.  Despite all the footage talking about free agency and the draft, one thing you never heard Schoen or anyone else mention was the team's division rivals.  Mike Lombardi learned from some of the best minds in football.  They taught him that the first thing a team needs to do is figure out how to defeat their division rivals.  While it's clear that Hard Knocks didn't capture all their discussions, there was enough discussion about how the Giants stack up against the Cowboys and Eagles (less so the Commanders), which would have been mentioned at least once.

An example that was given was the acquisition of Brian Burns.  Mike talked about how if he was still with Al Davis (in his prime), the first thing the team would do when considering acquiring him was to get all the tape of how he faired against the division rivals.  Yet, neither in hard knocks nor any presser that were never any mention about how Burns did against the Commanders, Eagles or Cowboys. 

Another thing Mike mocked was Daboll pulling up stats on his phone.  They have a whole analytics department and he was pulling up stats on this phone? 

You're doing the same thing he is: drawing broad conclusions from a show that does not portray everything. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Mike has the luxury of sitting home and "mocking" those who are doing the job he can't do anymore.

Quote from: T200 on September 10, 2024, 09:45:12 AMFunny how he says the product belongs to Schoen and not Mara. Call out the ownership for his choices at GM and HC over the past 8 years. He won't do that though. Call out the 6 years of unwavering support for a bottom-of-the-barrel QB. Call out the nepotism of putting family in a business they know nothing about.

Tim,

That's not a fair criticism.  Mike Lombardi has frequently criticized John Mara.  He says Mara is a quality man, but he is too loyal.  He also criticizes Mara for overvaluing his own players.  Those are two of the more frequent criticisms he has of Mara.  Overall, Mike Lombardi pins the decade-plus of futility on the owner.  So again, it's not a fair criticism of Mike Lombardi.

Quote from: Philosophers on September 10, 2024, 09:15:56 AMWhere did he say he got all his info from watching the show?

I think "when you watch that" pretty much covers that.

Quote from: T200 on September 10, 2024, 09:48:32 AMYou're doing the same thing he is: drawing broad conclusions from a show that does not portray everything. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Mike has the luxury of sitting home and "mocking" those who are doing the job he can't do anymore.

Does that sort of criticism also apply to anyone who ever criticizes anyone in the NFL unless they themselves have done the job successfully?  I also don't agree with your characterization of "mocking".  Mike engages in criticism which he supports with facts and reason.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 10, 2024, 09:46:37 AMIn my opinion, Mike is a better teacher of the NFL and the GM position than he was a GM.  I am always mindful (and Mike frequently quotes these men) that Mike learned football from Bill Walsh, Al Davis, and Bill Belichick.  I can't imagine a better trio to learn football from.

He may have learned but he didn't deliver when he was a GM.

Quote from: T200 on September 10, 2024, 09:53:43 AMHe may have learned but he didn't deliver when he was a GM.

Being a GM requires a different skill set than teaching or commenting on the GM job.   As the old saying goes, those who can't do it teach.   Hell, I saw that in EMS and heavy rescue.  I saw people who did a great job teaching, but they did not do well in the field on real calls.

I have read both of Mike's books on football, and I learned a great deal from both. (As I said, he was a guy who took mentoring and remembers many of the lessons brilliant and successful football minds taught him.)

The only other multibook football author I have learned as much from is Tom Coughlin (he has done three books).

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 10, 2024, 09:46:37 AMIn my opinion, Mike is a better teacher of the NFL and the GM position than he was a GM.  I am always mindful (and Mike frequently quotes these men) that Mike learned football from Bill Walsh, Al Davis, and Bill Belichick.  I can't imagine a better trio to learn football from.

This reminds me of a Peanuts cartoon:

Charlie Brown: I heard you taught Snoopy to whistle

Linus: I did

Charlie Brown: He's not whistling

Linus: I said I taught him.  I didn't say he learned.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on September 10, 2024, 09:58:26 AMThis reminds me of a Peanuts cartoon:

Charlie Brown: I heard you taught Snoopy to whistle

Linus: I did

Charlie Brown: He's not whistling

Linus: I said I taught him.  I didn't say he learned.

Rich,

I have read both of Mike's books and I have listened to his podcast for years.  He frequently (and correctly cites these men and the lessons they learn).   There is more to being a GM than just knowing.   There are skills like talent evaluation and character assessment in hires; it's about your personal attributes (including personality), which also play a part in a GM's success (to a degree, there is also luck).


If Mike Lombardi was this buffoon that many of you make him out to be, why would a brilliant man like Bill Belichick opt to do Youtube videos with him?


Bill Belichick and Michael Lombardi analyze 5 rookie quarterbacks ahead of 2024 season.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 10, 2024, 09:48:52 AMTim,

That's not a fair criticism.  Mike Lombardi has frequently criticized John Mara.  He says Mara is a quality man, but he is too loyal.  He also criticizes Mara for overvaluing his own players.  Those are two of the more frequent criticisms he has of Mara.  Overall, Mike Lombardi pins the decade-plus of futility on the owner.  So again, it's not a fair criticism of Mike Lombardi.

If he wants fair criticism, then he needs to give it.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 10, 2024, 09:50:51 AMDoes that sort of criticism also apply to anyone who ever criticizes anyone in the NFL unless they themselves have done the job successfully?  I also don't agree with your characterization of "mocking".  Mike engages in criticism which he supports with facts and reason.

Check my post, Rich. I highlighted YOUR use of the word "mock" when you described what Mike did. So it was YOUR characterization, not mine.

Quote from: T200 on September 10, 2024, 10:13:03 AMIf he wants fair criticism, then he needs to give it.
Check my post, Rich. I highlighted YOUR use of the word "mock" when you described what Mike did. So it was YOUR characterization, not mine.

Fair enough on the second point.  As to the first point, at least you admit your criticism isn't fair.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 10, 2024, 10:03:10 AMRich,

I have read both of Mike's books and I have listened to his podcast for years.  He frequently (and correctly cites these men and the lessons they learn).   There is more to being a GM than just knowing.   There are skills like talent evaluation and character assessment in hires; it's about your personal attributes (including personality), which also play a part in a GM's success (to a degree, there is also luck).


If Mike Lombardi was this buffoon that many of you make him out to be, why would a brilliant man like Bill Belichick opt to do Youtube videos with him?

First, don't put words in my mouth. No one called him a buffoon.

Second, you always say consider the source when someone posts something. Lombardi was 4-12 as a GM in Cleveland. He failed. What gives him any room to criticize someone at the job he failed at?

Third, I can't answer for Belichick and why he associates with people like Lombardi.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 10, 2024, 10:03:10 AMRich,

I have read both of Mike's books and I have listened to his podcast for years.  He frequently (and correctly cites these men and the lessons they learn).   There is more to being a GM than just knowing.   There are skills like talent evaluation and character assessment in hires; it's about your personal attributes (including personality), which also play a part in a GM's success (to a degree, there is also luck).


If Mike Lombardi was this buffoon that many of you make him out to be, why would a brilliant man like Bill Belichick opt to do Youtube videos with him?

Bill Belichick and Michael Lombardi analyze 5 rookie quarterbacks ahead of 2024 season.

One guy who never drafted a good QB and one guy who got lucky with a 6th rounder then couldn't draft a QB.

Frankly, Lombardi insults my intelligence when he draws conclusions from what he didn't see on hard knocks because it assumes it didn't happen.  HK never showed Schoen watching tape much, does that mean he didn't?  HK didn't show any of the evaluation that underlay the Burns' acquisition, but Lombardi knows they didn't look at how he did against our division rivals?  IMO he's a BSer putting out 'above the fray' clickbait for money.

Quote from: T200 on September 10, 2024, 10:17:49 AMFirst, don't put words in my mouth. No one called him a buffoon.

Second, you always say consider the source when someone posts something. Lombardi was 4-12 as a GM in Cleveland. He failed. What gives him any room to criticize someone at the job he failed at?

Third, I can't answer for Belichick and why he associates with people like Lombardi.

While there can be varying opinions, I do think that consistency of positions is should be expected.  So you and others argue we can't judge Schoen's poor roster building because it's only been 3 years, but you completely condemn Mike Lombardi based on a single season as GM of the dysfunctional Browns organization (mostly due to the owner).

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 10, 2024, 08:22:21 AMIt's funny, fans are eager to pile on Daniel Jones, but after 3 seasons the Giants have a roster that is ranked (and plays like) one of the worst in the league.  Yet, fans are more eager to bash any critics than they are to hold our GM (who objectively has not done anything to improve the roster he inherited in the last three years) accountable.

People may hate Mike Lombardi, but I have a hard time saying he is wrong about Joe Schoen.  The results, as they say, speak for themselves

The roster is significantly better the QB is significantly worse.  He should be crushed for giving Jones that contract because if he hadn't this team would be a middle of the pack team or better.  It was likely a hard sell to Mara and the like that the team that just made the playoffs needs to move on from the QB and trade the RB but it's what he should have done and what I believe the plan was when he got here. 

They had no business making the playoffs that first year they were supposed to be VERY bad, get the cap in order, and start building.  Making the playoffs screwed up the entire plan and boxed him into a position where he likely felt obligated to build around Jones thinking there's no way he goes back to be awful he has to keep improving.....only that's not what happened.

So I don't think it's fair to say there's no plan.  There was a very clear plan.  It got screwed up when they won enough games to make the playoffs and face the one and only team there that they could actually beat in the first round.

Quote from: Gmo11 on September 10, 2024, 10:23:44 AMThe roster is significantly better the QB is significantly worse. 

Same QB and an equally poor roster.  Not sure what you are basing your claims of a much improved or why the same QB is significantly worse under Schoen.