Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 10, 2024, 10:22:45 AMWhile there can be varying opinions, I do think that consistency of positions is should be expected.  So you and others argue we can't judge Schoen's poor roster building because it's only been 3 years, but you completely condemn Mike Lombardi based on a single season as GM of the dysfunctional Browns organization (mostly due to the owner).

You're crossing signals, Rich.

You yourself have said that three to four years is enough time to judge a GM's draft. This is year three of Schoen's FIRST draft AFTER inheriting a dumpster fire from Gettleman.

The Giants are just as dysfunctional (mostly due to the owner).

My point is clear on Lombardi: he has no grounds to judge someone's job when he failed at the same job.

Quote from: T200 on September 10, 2024, 10:31:43 AMYou're crossing signals, Rich.

You yourself have said that three to four years is enough time to judge a GM's draft. This is year three of Schoen's FIRST draft AFTER inheriting a dumpster fire from Gettleman.

The Giants are just as dysfunctional (mostly due to the owner).

My point is clear on Lombardi: he has no grounds to judge someone's job when he failed at the same job.

Again, you are claiming you can judge a GM in one year.  So why can't we judge Schoen's complete and utter lack of progress after three?

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 10, 2024, 09:31:21 AMIt's been three years of off-season roster moves.  Why are they no better???

Lots of wiffs there, for sure. You won't get any argument for me.

Are all of those players receiving good pillars of support in order to succeed?

I note you didn't make any comment on the hiring of what turned out to be the coach of the year in 2023. JS deserves credit for that.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 10, 2024, 10:34:05 AMLots of wiffs there, for sure. You won't get any argument for me.

Are all of those players receiving good pillars of support in order to succeed?

I note you didn't make any comment on the hiring of what turned out to be the coach of the year in 2023. JS deserves credit for that.

The coach of the year seems to have stumbled greatly since then.  What's Daboll's record since he won that award?   Also, with positions outside of QB, the biggest pillar of support is coaching.  So perhaps you should consider your question when assessing the job Daboll has done.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 10, 2024, 10:32:53 AMAgain, you are claiming you can judge a GM in one year.  So why can't we judge Schoen's complete and utter lack of progress after three?

Again, you're claiming I said something I didn't.

Please read again what I said.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 10, 2024, 10:36:31 AMThe coach of the year seems to have stumbled greatly since then.  What's Daboll's record since he won that award?   Also, with positions outside of QB, the biggest pillar of support is coaching.  So perhaps you should consider your question when assessing the job Daboll has done.

Ah, so it's a "what have you done for me lately" when examining certain facets to the organisation.

That's fine, so long as you're consistent in such parameters.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 10, 2024, 10:43:18 AMAh, so it's a "what have you done for me lately" when examining certain facets to the organisation.

That's fine, so long as you're consistent in such parameters.

Ed,

How many coaches have Daboll replaced that weren't the result of other teams poaching talent?   That high level of turnover and the drama with Wink are more than just "what have you done for me lately".

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 10, 2024, 10:47:14 AMEd,

How many coaches have Daboll replaced that weren't the result of other teams poaching talent?   That high level of turnover and the drama with Wink are more than just "what have you done for me lately".

To be fair, I think the Wink drama is at least a 50/50 split in terms of blame. There's a reason he's kicking around in the college ranks.

But I tend to agree with the overall points you're making - they ought to be further along in the process than they are. But they make the playoffs and won a game.

The long term vision would have been skewed somewhat by that.

I guess I feel whilst criticism is fair and nobody should be above critique. I do find it somewhat perplexing that it's coming from a guy who was one year and done as a GM then out of the league 2 years later. I think if anyone in this conversation is an embarrassment to the GM fraternity, most would say it's Lombardi.  But he's paid to get clicks and views, so perhaps he's more successful chirping from the computer.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 10, 2024, 10:57:57 AMTo be fair, I think the Wink drama is at least a 50/50 split in terms of blame. There's a reason he's kicking around in the college ranks.

But I tend to agree with the overall points you're making - they ought to be further along in the process than they are. But they make the playoffs and won a game.

The long term vision would have been skewed somewhat by that.

I guess I feel whilst criticism is fair and nobody should be above critique. I do find it somewhat perplexing that it's coming from a guy who was one year and done as a GM then out of the league 2 years later. I think if anyone in this conversation is an embarrassment to the GM fraternity, most would say it's Lombardi.  But he's paid to get clicks and views, so perhaps he's more successful chirping from the computer.

I've been running an auto detailing business for four years now. I take Lombardi's criticism of Schoen (and claims of being a GM as "his profession" after being a GM for only a year) in the same vein as a detailer who took years of training from the industry leaders but his own business failed after a year and calls my business "insulting" to the detailing profession.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 10, 2024, 10:57:57 AMTo be fair, I think the Wink drama is at least a 50/50 split in terms of blame. There's a reason he's kicking around in the college ranks.

But I tend to agree with the overall points you're making - they ought to be further along in the process than they are. But they make the playoffs and won a game.

The long term vision would have been skewed somewhat by that.

I guess I feel whilst criticism is fair and nobody should be above critique. I do find it somewhat perplexing that it's coming from a guy who was one year and done as a GM then out of the league 2 years later. I think if anyone in this conversation is an embarrassment to the GM fraternity, most would say it's Lombardi.  But he's paid to get clicks and views, so perhaps he's more successful chirping from the computer.

Mike Lombardi's primary job is to work for the VSIN network, providing insights for football gamblers.  His books and his GM Shuffle podcast are passion projects (there are few sponsors on his podcast).  So he really isn't in the click-bait business.  There is one thing about Mike, though: he is not part of the regular NFL media.  He doesn't do interviews; he doesn't attend pressers.  He doesn't need the goodwill of any NFL team or the NFL.  His sources are his family and his many connections in the league.

As a result, Mike is completely free to speak his mind and tell it like it is.  He can speak his mind about what is going on with the Giants without worrying that he will get a phone call from Pat Hanlon or anyone else in the Giants front office wanting him to reign it in.  NYG can't call VSIN and threaten to pull press credentials unless Mike tows the company line a bit better.

I suspect that's why so many fans are down on Mike, it's jarring to get raw opinions that are lacking in any sense of diplomacy or restraint.

Quote from: T200 on September 10, 2024, 11:06:07 AMI've been running an auto detailing business for four years now. I take Lombardi's criticism of Schoen (and claims of being a GM as "his profession" after being a GM for only a year) in the same vein as a detailer who took years of training from the industry leaders but his own business failed after a year and calls my business "insulting" to the detailing profession.

A couple of flaws in that analogy. 

1)  running a detailing business as an owner with complete autonomy rather than working for an owner like a GM

2)  I believe being a GM is a vastly different and more complicated job than running an auto-detailing business.   More importantly, auto-detailing can succeed based on doing a good job detailing, charging fair prices, being good and reliable to your customers, and being moderately good at marketing your business.  While a GM is COMPETING against 31 of the brightest football minds on the planet.  If you want, or as you repeatedly have implied, Mike, to turn around a losing franchise in just one season, you can't just be competent. You must be the best and enjoy some good luck along the way.

HIS profession?  He is not a gm, he was a bad one for about 2 hours.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 10, 2024, 10:25:04 AMSame QB and an equally poor roster.  Not sure what you are basing your claims of a much improved or why the same QB is significantly worse under Schoen.

The human is the same, the performance is significantly worse.  I would find it hard to argue that Jones last year before he got hurt and the first game this year is just as bad as he was his first couple seasons.  He wasn't ever any good, to be very clear, but these last 8 games or so are historically worst QB in the entire league level awful.

But just look at the depth chart: 

WR: Significantly better
OL: Significantly better (this year finally)
RB: Worse at the top but with better depth
TE: Wash

DL: Better
LB: Significantly better
DB: Worse unless Banks takes a leap in year 2 then it's a wash

Granted that's just my opinion and others can disagree but to me this roster from top to bottom is a lot better than the one he inherited and if Jones could complete a simple 10 yard pass over the middle they probably win that game on Sunday and none of this is a talking point.  But he can't and he drags everybody around him down. 

Quote from: Gmo11 on September 10, 2024, 11:16:25 AMThe human is the same, the performance is significantly worse.  I would find it hard to argue that Jones last year before he got hurt and the first game this year is just as bad as he was his first couple seasons.  He wasn't ever any good, to be very clear, but these last 8 games or so are historically worst QB in the entire league level awful.

But just look at the depth chart: 

WR: Significantly better
OL: Significantly better (this year finally)
RB: Worse at the top but with better depth
TE: Wash

DL: Better
LB: Significantly better
DB: Worse unless Banks takes a leap in year 2 then it's a wash

Granted that's just my opinion and others can disagree but to me this roster from top to bottom is a lot better than the one he inherited and if Jones could complete a simple 10 yard pass over the middle they probably win that game on Sunday and none of this is a talking point.  But he can't and he drags everybody around him down. 

You think the poor job Schoen did last year in putting together the offensive line might have contributed to DJ's decline (after he got the crap beat out of him due to lack of protection)?

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 10, 2024, 11:12:43 AMA couple of flaws in that analogy. 

1)  running a detailing business as an owner with complete autonomy rather than working for an owner like a GM

2)  I believe being a GM is a vastly different and more complicated job than running an auto-detailing business.   More importantly, auto-detailing can succeed based on doing a good job detailing, charging fair prices, being good and reliable to your customers, and being moderately good at marketing your business.  While a GM is COMPETING against 31 of the brightest football minds on the planet.  If you want, or as you repeatedly have implied, Mike, to turn around a losing franchise in just one season, you can't just be competent. You must be the best and enjoy some good luck along the way.

Call them flaws if you'd like. The point, which you clearly missed, is that someone who failed at a job, be it GM of a professional sports team or an auto detailing business, has zero room to criticize someone else who is still doing the job better than the critic ever has or will.

You're boosting Lombardi when he has not earned the right to criticize.