Big Blue Huddle

If we're going to say Gettleman set this team back a decade, that means you're saying he set the team back thorough 2027 (he was hired in late December 2017). That effectievly means you're giving Schoen a five year pass for the team to suck.

I don't think Schoen should be given a five year pass. He is in year three now. This is his team now. The fact that Gettleman's QB is still here is on Schoen, not Gettleman. The fact that an offensive tackle he took 7th overall who has been an unmitigated disaster is on him, not Gettleman. Same with picking an edge guy who looks like a day two caliber player 5th overall. Etc etc etc.

I think Gettleman was an unmitigated disaster. There are no superlatives to adequately describe how bad a GM I think he was. But if the team still stinks this year and another two years after this one, that's not on Gettleman. That's on Schoen.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on September 10, 2024, 07:45:23 PMIf we're going to say Gettleman set this team back a decade, that means you're saying he set the team back thorough 2027 (he was hired in late December 2017). That effectievly means you're giving Schoen a five year pass for the team to suck.

I don't think Schoen should be given a five year pass. He is in year three now. This is his team now. The fact that Gettleman's QB is still here is on Schoen, not Gettleman. The fact that an offensive tackle he took 7th overall who has been an unmitigated disaster is on him, not Gettleman. Same with picking an edge guy who looks like a day two caliber player 5th overall. Etc etc etc.

I think Gettleman was an unmitigated disaster. There are no superlatives to adequately describe how bad a GM I think he was. But if the team still stinks this year and another two years after this one, that's not on Gettleman. That's on Schoen.

Hot take even with his horrible drafting of Jones and Barkley, to this point Gettlemans drafts were more impactful abd straight up better than schoens imo.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on September 10, 2024, 07:53:16 PMHot take even with his horrible drafting of Jones and Barkley, to this point Gettlemans drafts were more impactful abd straight up better than schoens imo.

Maybe. Both have had some doozies. Gettleman had Hernandez, Baker, and Toney. The only Schoen pick so far that seems as bad as those is Neal.

I'd say Schoen so far has shown more discipline overall around free agency too. Ok, you can kill him for the Jones contract, but at least he gave himself an emergency two year out, which is almost unheard of for a big time second QB contract. Gettleman on the other hand gave you Golladay and Solder.

Since it hasn't been 10 years yet, i'll again flag the offseason they didn't sign Whitworth and also drafted Engram instead of Ramczyk in the 2017 draft. I think Eli had a window there with OBJ that either of those players at LT would have made a world of difference. 

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on September 10, 2024, 08:19:13 PMMaybe. Both have had some doozies. Gettleman had Hernandez, Baker, and Toney. The only Schoen pick so far that seems as bad as those is Neal.

I'd say Schoen so far has shown more discipline overall around free agency too. Ok, you can kill him for the Jones contract, but at least he gave himself an emergency two year out, which is almost unheard of for a big time second QB contract. Gettleman on the other hand gave you Golladay and Solder.

Solder I find amusing since so many on this board were absolutely banging the table for him at the time.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on September 10, 2024, 07:45:23 PMIf we're going to say Gettleman set this team back a decade, that means you're saying he set the team back thorough 2027 (he was hired in late December 2017). That effectievly means you're giving Schoen a five year pass for the team to suck.

I don't think Schoen should be given a five year pass. He is in year three now. This is his team now. The fact that Gettleman's QB is still here is on Schoen, not Gettleman. The fact that an offensive tackle he took 7th overall who has been an unmitigated disaster is on him, not Gettleman. Same with picking an edge guy who looks like a day two caliber player 5th overall. Etc etc etc.

I think Gettleman was an unmitigated disaster. There are no superlatives to adequately describe how bad a GM I think he was. But if the team still stinks this year and another two years after this one, that's not on Gettleman. That's on Schoen.

I agree with this in terms of measurables. You can clear a cap and turn over a roster in a few years. The league is designed to generate parity over time. But I want to push back on the cultural aspect Gettleman brought to the Giants.

I started following the Giants in the early 80s. George Young and Bill Parcells ran the franchise in a manner that emphasized high standards and accountability for on-field performance. Parcells, for example, might comment during training camp that he thinks he has 40 NFL players and he's going to see if he can find a few more on his roster by week 1. Compare that to the current era where we hear guys whine during cut down day about all the no-names they can't believe didn't make the team. People are so afraid of exposing players who might someday develop into serviceable players. But Parcells didn't believe you could play until you showed him on the field. So, the bar back then was much higher.

When Parcells retired and Young got old, the team had a lot of ups and downs, but I believe there was the same fundamental commitment to excellence within the building. We all understood you couldn't even begin to talk about success until you showed you could compete with Dallas, Philly, and Washington. If you were significantly behind any of those three teams, nothing else you did really mattered much.

Fast forward to the Coughlin years, and we had the same commitment to excellence and high standards for our play. The problem was the GM Jerry Reese was a talented scout but didn't have enough of an understanding on how to build an organization. He could add players here and there, but his moves weren't grounded in any proven philosophy. So as the roster aged, Reese had no answers.

Next, they brought in Gettleman. I believe the idea was Gettleman would restore the old school philosophies of Young and Parcells, which Jerry Reese didn't understand.

At first it seemed like that's what Gettleman intended to do. He turned his sights on the roster and purged anyone who wasn't a boy scout. (That is not at all consistent with how Young/Parcells ran things, but that's another story).

Eventually, it became clear that Gettleman was more in love with the fame and attention than he was with restoring the Giants to greatness. So, as the media caught on that his moves were backfiring, Gettleman began relaxing the standards. He became a politician who believed his job was to manage public opinion rather than solve problems.

So after Gettleman, we ended up in an era where potential matters more than performance. Players were coddled in the media and made to feel entitled to years of on the job training. Rookies were anointed as saviors before they'd accomplished anything. Average players were talked up as if they were in the same category as our legendary players. Good players were paid as if they were difference makers. It became taboo to say "this isn't good enough."

So we're a few years removed from Gettleman, but I still think his culture is with us. That's why we see a guy like Kayvon take no accountability for his play and there's no one to check him.

It's a problem. And cultures can take years to change. I'm not sure how they restore this franchise to one of high standards. From what I've seen, Schoen is less interested in coddling his players than Gettleman was, but is he another Jerry Reese, or will he  help this organization grow into something more.

I have been clamoring for Jim Harbaugh for years. The Giants could have tried to get him instead of Joe Judge. and again instead of Daboll. But of course the idiots who own and run this team would never have done it. They hate a guy who's different, considered "out there". Reportedly they never even considered him. Stupid. By the way, John Mara is on the record as being against the Coughlin hire in 2004. Luckily he didn't have the final word back then. 

They have made a lot of big mistakes. But I believe the problems are structural.

1. John Mara seems like a nice guy but he is an unbelievably incompetent "Team President". He's there because he's a co-owner. Anyone else would have been fired from that job 8-9 years ago.

2. Chris Mara also can't be fired from his job despite being demonstrably incompetent over the last 13 years because, like John Mara, he is a co-owner.

3. This means that two incompetent people are ultimate decision-makers on the team, and no one can get rid of them, or hold them to account. The Giants will never be good as long as these two guys are running the show. It was the same when Wellington Mara their very nice-guy dad was in charge. In 1979, there was a rebel in the family (Tim Mara Jr.) who could shake things up and force the NFL to intervene. No such person exists today. The co-owners, the Tisch family, don't know anything about football.

4. Look closely at the Joe Judge hire. Who in their right minds would hire that guy as a head coach. Easily the worst NFL head coach of any team in the last 15 years. He had no resume. All he had was the ability to act like a coach on TV, and that, plus a phone call with Bill Belichik (who only produced NFL head coaching failures in the NFL and failed himself as soon as he didn't have Tom Brady) was enough to hire him. That was after they had hired Ben McAdoo and Pat Shurmur, who weren't much better. A braintrust that makes these hires doesn't know what it's doing, is essentially hopeless.

5. Gettleman. Awful. But Schoen has been here three years now and the Giants are as bad as they've ever been. That's on the current leadership, starting with John and Chris Mara.

6. At the end of this season they will fire Schoen and Daboll. But John and Chris Mara will still be in charge of hiring the new guys and the result won't be much better. If instead of calling Belichik like they do every two years to get his instructions on who to hire as HC (which is what they did with both Judge and Daboll), they just hire Belichik himself to run the team, it will be an unmitigated disaster. This team could be like the Lions were for four decades. Consistently among the worst teams in the NFL, without any chance of success. 

7. They could have gone out and tried to get Jim Harbaugh, he wanted to come. We would be seeing a completely different team (I guarantee you Daniel Jones would not be his QB) and we wouldn't be having this sad conversation. That may have been their biggest mistake. 

Many, so many mistakes that you can't even thread them all. The Giants for over a decade are the worst NFL franchise running, even more dysfunctional than the Jets IMO. And that's really awful.

They're a complete joke around the league, not to mention how terrible their AC unit of a stadium sucks too

1. Daniel Jones
2. Gettleman (I an including Golladay and all his bas signings and cap hell creation all in one)
3. Evan Neal, and poor OL in general

Quote from: MrGap92 on September 11, 2024, 08:38:25 AM1. Daniel Jones
2. Gettleman (I an including Golladay and all his bas signings and cap hell creation all in one)
3. Evan Neal, and poor OL in general

Gettleman picked Jones in the top 10 when nobody else would have taken him in the 1st round.  I think you gotta rank Gettleman over Jones there.

Quote from: Gmo11 on September 11, 2024, 08:49:56 AMGettleman picked Jones in the top 10 when nobody else would have taken him in the 1st round.  I think you gotta rank Gettleman over Jones there.

Yes, but he surpassed Gettleman since he is still here, and someone gave him a contract. I'm probably forgetting someone, but I want to say all other DG mistakes are gone.

He certainly gets blame for being the catalyst, I just gave him an exception since he is still a thorn in the teams side.

This whole throw Eli out because he's a washed up bum. If Daniel Jones or Pat Mahomes can't play behind a bad o-line ; how would you expect Eli to do it.

I also watched Ben Rothlesberger play for another 2 seasons on a wild card play off team and Phil Rivers play on a different team for heavans sake.

If Eli got to play ; finally retired on his own after the 2018 season and we drafted Herbert ; coach or no coach we would be in a pretty good spot right now.

Quote from: Gmo11 on September 11, 2024, 08:49:56 AMGettleman picked Jones in the top 10 when nobody else would have taken him in the 1st round.  I think you gotta rank Gettleman over Jones there.

That's not true; Phil Simms said at least 30 teams were poised to draft him .  Of course, he didn't say that before the draft, and we have no way to prove its true. So what's the harm to make those claims?  It perpetuated his image as an "insider."   

Quote from: Fletch on September 11, 2024, 10:00:40 AMThis whole throw Eli out because he's a washed up bum. If Daniel Jones or Pat Mahomes can't play behind a bad o-line ; how would you expect Eli to do it.

I also watched Ben Rothlesberger play for another 2 seasons on a wild card play off team and Phil Rivers play on a different team for heavans sake.

If Eli got to play ; finally retired on his own after the 2018 season and we drafted Herbert ; coach or no coach we would be in a pretty good spot right now.

And the worst part is, that was the obvious decision at the TIME.  Eli deserved a farewell year anyway not a farewell 2 games and benched for the rookie season.  Everybody is happy and they get to say goodbye to a legend all the while positioning yourself for either Tua or Herbert whichever you prefer and then Burrow comes out of nowhere that year too so they get one of those guys and the rest is history.

Instead....we are still digging out of that hole Gettleman created.