Big Blue Huddle

Love Barkley as a player, but where we are as a team we needed to allot the $$$ to the lines. So I think Barkley is a great player whose stats were severely deflated because he played for the Giants, but moving on was the right move.

Also people keep talking about injuries, it seems to be a growing urban myth now. For the record, Barkley had started 43 of the last 51 games for the Giants (so the 2021-23 seasons). Yes some of those games he had tweaks, but all running backs do. That is way up there in RB durability when you compare it to all the others.

T

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 13, 2024, 09:35:59 AMBalance doesn't require a star being paid disproportionately to what is effective for the team. It's diminishing returns. The Giants wanted to transition to a passing offense and believed they could get enough running from a committee style approach. Schoen said it himself: you're not paying Jones $40MM to hand the ball off. It remains to be seen whether the Giants chosen alternative can be effective. One snap shot in an effort that quickly got out of control isn't going to tell us much.

Also, while no one doubts Saquon's talent, his availability is questionable. That isn't going to be borne out after 1 game--and I don't think the Eagles can run him 25+ times every Sunday or they will grind him down quickly.

Do you honestly think when the Giants need a RB they can go out and automatically get one?  Before Saquon, who was the last good RB and when did he flourish?  Talent does not grow on trees and picking talent rarely is successful.  When you have it, build around it.

Quote from: Giant Jim on September 13, 2024, 09:46:22 AMTeams need balanced running and passing game threats, so running backs are not a luxury.

Definitely a need, not really a luxury. The problem is though, that RBs have a short shelf life and are easily replaceable with a RB by committee. If a team is way under cap and still competitive, it's a luxury to spend over 10 million a year on a single RB...IMHO

I criticize Jerruh a lot (and rightfully so, I might add), but I give him credit for having the balls to cut Zeke and his outrageous contract (6 yrs / 90M), then resign him a year later for a 1-yr contract of 2M (1.6M guaranteed). That's chump change in this league

RBs are a necessity and much of their success is tied to the offensive line, but spending over 10 million a year on a back that will probably be injured throughout the season if given a heavy load, is a luxury

I've been a proponent of the "running back by committee" for the last decade or so. You can throw a variety of running styles at your opponents, while somewhat saving their bodies. The NFL is a passing league now, but you MUST have the ability to move the ball on the ground to keep defenses honest in order for the passing game to flourish

Picking t

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on September 13, 2024, 10:12:02 AMDefinitely a need, not really a luxury. The problem is though, that RBs have a short shelf life and are easily replaceable with a RB by committee. If a team is way under cap and still competitive, it's a luxury to spend over 10 million a year on a single RB...IMHO

I criticize Jerruh a lot (and rightfully so, I might add), but I give him credit for having the balls to cut Zeke and his outrageous contract (6 yrs / 90M), then resign him a year later for a 1-yr contract of 2M (1.6M guaranteed). That's chump change in this league

RBs are a necessity and much of their success is tied to the offensive line, but spending over 10 million a year on a back that will probably be injured throughout the season if given a heavy load, is a luxury

I've been a proponent of the "running back by committee" for the last decade or so. You can throw a variety of running styles at your opponents, while somewhat saving their bodies. The NFL is a passing league now, but you MUST have the ability to move the ball on the ground to keep defenses honest in order for the passing game to flourish

Picking talent is hard but I also like the Committee approach.

Quote from: Philosophers on September 13, 2024, 09:18:13 AMWinning is an accumulation of talent built to execute a strategy.  A balanced running and passing game should be part of that strategy.  Saquon helped with one part of that.

This is the proven formula for success and we've seen the 49ers do it with Purdy to his receivers and TE. When defenders take away his options there, he goes to McCaffrey who then proceeds to bust open holes and break into the secondary. Then, you see Kittle and Deebo in the short passing game take apart defenders until Purdy can basically do what he wants at that point.

The same goes with the Iggles right now and you can also make the case for Dallas if their QB can pull his game together during the playoffs. But Detroit is the Wild Card in this group who can do it the "Parcells" way or air it out with the best of them. Those are your teams who have all the tools and do not have to rely on just one phase of their offense to get it done.

We can likely forgo the rest of the season, get those teams together and start the playoffs this weekend, same with Buffalo, Baltimore, Kansas City and pick the fourth team, and go for it.

So much for parity. The "haves" and "have nots" are still alive and well. Granted, the tipping point may be the QB, as it always has been, but having a balance of key talent in the right places doesn't hurt either.

Peace!

It was the correct way to go. We can get a high 2nd round RB  next year and most likely our QB in the 1st next year. We will have a young WR core, a young QB and young RB to build this team around.

Quote from: brownelvis54 on September 13, 2024, 10:22:39 AMIt was the correct way to go. We can get a high 2nd round RB  next year and most likely our QB in the 1st next year. We will have a young WR core, a young QB and young RB to build this team around.
[/quote

Quote from: brownelvis54 on September 13, 2024, 10:22:39 AMIt was the correct way to go. We can get a high 2nd round RB  next year and most likely our QB in the 1st next year. We will have a young WR core, a young QB and young RB to build this team around.

... with a lousy offensive line.

Quote from: Philosophers on September 13, 2024, 10:15:05 AMPicking talent is hard but I also like the Committee approach.

It was effective when we had Ahmad Bradshaw and Brandon Jacobs - the "dancing scat cat" and the "bulldozer". I like that we have Turbo on our PS, as he could develop into the ultimate scat back, and Singletary is an adequate feature back, but it would be nice to have a power back...hence, I've discussed it in another thread that we should perhaps work DE/DT Baby Bison into a two-way player and use him as a power back at times (remember the play where he ran down the WR?) - he ain't slow. He was a RB throughout HS and early college before being remolded into a pint-sized defensive lineman. The kid is strong as hell and fearless and would knock a LB or S on their ass for those extra couple of yards...like the good old days when Brandon Jacobs would obliterate a would-be tackler

Whatever the case, a RB today must be able to catch a pass on a consistent basis and also be a part of the passing game. It's what separates McCaffrey (and Barkley) from other RBs and puts them into the next level

we've discussed the major reasons why it was the right thing for the Giants to do given their current roster and why it was the right thing for the Eagles to do given theirs.  Another thing to consider is when you have a RB like that you're devoting that much money to, you kinda have to pinch pennies on the backup because Barkley will presumably be playing all the time.  Only in his case he's hurt a lot, so you DO want to have a good backup on the team.  So not only are you paying him the #1 RB salary in the league you have to devote more money to his backup than you'd like.  OR you roll the dice that he won't get hurt, like the Giants have been doing.

Every way you slice it, the Giants did the right thing, the Eagles did the right thing, and Barkley did the right thing. 

Quote from: Giant Jim on September 13, 2024, 10:47:29 AM... with a lousy offensive line.

Of course the O-line will be addressed. You dont need to draft high. You have to draft right. David Diehl 5th round, Shaun O'Hara undrafted.

Quote from: brownelvis54 on September 13, 2024, 10:53:38 AMOf course the O-line will be addressed. You dont need to draft high. You have to draft right. David Diehl 5th round, Shaun O'Hara undrafted.

2 players in the last 15 years?
A good player can come from any round. How many offensive linemen are drafted in late rounds don't make it. It's like saying there's no reason to draft WR's, you can find good ones like Victor Cruz for free. Andrew Thomas is by far their best lineman and he was drafted high. Teams need to be built with linemen first. Skill positions come later. QB's need to develop so they jump to the top of the skill player list.

Quote from: brownelvis54 on September 13, 2024, 10:53:38 AMOf course the O-line will be addressed. You dont need to draft high. You have to draft right. David Diehl 5th round, Shaun O'Hara undrafted.

Uh we did not pluck O'Hara undrafted out of college, Cleveland did. He was on contract #2 with us so he was never part of a rookie class with us.

I hear pundits ridiculing the Giants and say, "what do the Giants do when they need a game-changing player, they release their best and only one". Reminds me of my old girlfriend who was a baseball fanatic (Mets and Dodgers), who absolutely hated my Yankees (which she lovingly referred to as the "yank-me's" just to dig at me). She rubbed it into me one year when she told me, "What do the Yankees do when they need pitching? They release Ron Guidry"...then she would laugh so hard she would practically fall over. Bitch! 

Quote from: Philosophers on September 13, 2024, 09:50:04 AMDo you honestly think when the Giants need a RB they can go out and automatically get one?

I certainly didn't say it's easy. If you think I implied it, you ignored the portion where I clearly reserved judgment on the path that the Giants have taken. Pinning the primary hopes of the running game on Singletary, who has never been a bell-cow back, could certainly be a mistake worthy of criticism. I just don't know yet after one damn game with a revamped offensive line.

QuoteBefore Saquon, who was the last good RB and when did he flourish?

To answer the question, it's been awhile. But how much did they win with Saquon? His first 4 seasons they never won more than 6 games. So for the vast majority of his career, it hasn't mattered how talented he is.

Further, you haven't mentioned his health concerns at all when discussing his talent. He has a track record of being worn down at the end of the season, past significant injuries, and is not getting any younger.

QuoteTalent does not grow on trees and picking talent rarely is successful.  When you have it, build around it.

The Giants tried to sign him! Twice! They tried to sign him to an above market deal after 2022. He rejected it. Even after a bad campaign in 2023 marred by injury, they tried to sign him again. The Giants had their number (which by all accounts was still significant), the Eagles went above it, and the Giants stuck to theirs. It's not like they told Saquon to go pound sand and never entertained bringing him back.

Given they tried to sign him, are you saying they should have given him whatever he wanted, cap implications be damned? Then probably no Eluemenor or Runyan and you've got a still porous offensive line that Barkley won't finish the season behind.

If you want to impugn the Giants for failing to build a team where a talented running back might put them over the top (kind of like the Eagles), go for it. But Gettleman drafting left this team with zero depth and Schoen hasn't immediately replenished it, so they've had to fill gaps with free agents and don't have the free cash to devote to a position where the production can be approximated by lesser players (and again, maybe they went with the wrong guys to fill this void, but I can't know that yet).

Bottom line for me:

Would the team be better this year with Barkley?  Yes.

But they don't have their QB of the future and by the time they have one that is ready to do anything significant, Barkley will be close to 30. 

I'm starting to get worried that by the time this team has a QB ready to win Dex will be past his prime.  I would say the same thing with Andrew Thomas but tend to be able to play well later in their 30's than DTs.