Big Blue Huddle

On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being completely sure and confident


Head Coach- 5  The players don't seem to be playing at or near their maximum potential.   Play calling (on both sides of the ball) often has some reasons for second-guessing.   There were serious questions at the end of last season about Daboll's abilities as a head coach.  This season has done nothing to put those concerns to bed

GM- 4-  Joe Schoen is a nicer guy than David Gettleman.   He seems to be more modern in his thinking.  He simply doesn't appear to be smart enough or have the sort of master plan and overarching philosophies that the great GMs possess.  His draft success has been mixed as has his trades and free agent signings ( think the draft has been worse than his free agent signings)

Quarterback- 2  Daniel Jones does not appear to be the current or long-term answer.  The room behind DJ is below average.   

O-line-  5  When Andrew Thomas is healthy, the unit is middle of the pack functional.  When he is hurt (which is more the case than not) this line is terrible.

D-line- 7  The defensive line with Dex in is pretty solid. However, if he takes a break, this line goes to well below average, especially against the run.

Receiver talent-  6  Nabers flashes serious potential along with the ability to make key drops.  Beyond that, the receiving talent is a mediocre collection of NFL players.

DBs-  6  There is serious depth and starter questions at CB that is somewhat offset by a pretty good safety group

Rest of the team-  4   Lots of injury issues with the special teams players and the team generally lacks depth at critical positions

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 21, 2024, 09:07:10 AMOn a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being completely sure and confident


Head Coach- 5  The players don't seem to be playing at or near their maximum potential.   Play calling (on both sides of the ball) often has some reasons for second-guessing.   There were serious questions at the end of last season about Daboll's abilities as a head coach.  This season has done nothing to put those concerns to bed

GM- 4-  Joe Schoen is a nicer guy than David Gettleman.   He seems to be more modern in his thinking.  He simply doesn't appear to be smart enough or have the sort of master plan and overarching philosophies that the great GMs possess.  His draft success has been mixed as has his trades and free agent signings ( think the draft has been worse than his free agent signings)

Quarterback- 2  Daniel Jones does not appear to be the current or long-term answer.  The room behind DJ is below average.   

O-line-  5  When Andrew Thomas is healthy, the unit is middle of the pack functional.  When he is hurt (which is more the case than not) this line is terrible.

D-line- 7  The defensive line with Dex in is pretty solid. However, if he takes a break, this line goes to well below average, especially against the run.

Receiver talent-  6  Nabers flashes serious potential along with the ability to make key drops.  Beyond that, the receiving talent is a mediocre collection of NFL players.

DBs-  6  There is serious depth and starter questions at CB that is somewhat offset by a pretty good safety group

Rest of the team-  4   Lots of injury issues with the special teams players and the team generally lacks depth at critical positions

Rich - overall I agree with you. I think both Schoen and Dabs are 4s.  Dabs looks way over his head.  Schoen has more misses especially drafting as low as he has.

OL - Giants need to realize AT cant ply a half season without getting hurt.  They need a versatile OT in the Draft who can play RT but move to LT and play at a high level.  We have decent Guard play with our FA pickups but we need talented depth as our young backups across OL are terrible.  JMS looks to be developing.

WR - Nabers is good but he needs his drops to be coached out of him.  Rest of WRs are marginal.

TE - too early to tell with Johnson but he is not the athletic marvel so far Inhad hoped.

RB - Tracy may develop but we need a a complementary big pounding back.

QB - new QB is a must.

DL - I like Dex but am ambivalent after that.  Thibs is not big when it counts as he is not relentless.  Burns has had moments but we are not getting what we paid for.  We continue to have a hole at 3 tech.

LB - I am ok with what we have.

Secondary - we need maybe another outside CB but we may be able to get by.  I am not sure if we are athletic enough at safety.

I think this team has little talent.  We seem to go 4 seasons before we get production out of a 4th or 5th round pick.

HC - we need an established head coach who has a huge rolodex of talented teaching position coaches and coordinators to run aggressive schemes.  I dont mean a 34 year old hot coordinator with a tiny rolodex to build a staff from.  I want a HC who can "get the band back together" with proven position coaches yet be evokved enough to take on some new schemes and rely on older, always have worked schemes (play action with 50-50 run/pass).

GM - we need a GM with a philosophy of proper way how to construct a team and how to identify talent from Draft, waiver wire and FA pickups.  Schoen has no vision, no overarching philosophical strategy to guide his process for acquiring talent.

How to identify talent?  We seem to be focusing on choir boy type draft picks who seem to end up being low ceiling players.  For maybe later rounds do we need to gamble more for hugely high ceiling athletes maybe with warts and look to team leaders to get them inline?

Quote from: Philosophers on October 21, 2024, 09:32:25 AMWe seem to go 4 seasons before we get production out of a 4th or 5th round pick.

I agree with most of what you said, but I found this point particularly important.  With the constraints of the salary cap, it's nearly impossible for a team to have success if you can't get players to play well when they are being paid rookie wages.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 21, 2024, 09:35:10 AMI agree with most of what you said, but I found this point particularly important.  With the constraints of the salary cap, it's nearly impossible for a team to have success if you can't get players to play well when they are being paid rookie wages.

Rich - it makes me crazy how teams that have been good the past 5 years and draft in the far back of each round in the Draft year in and year out end up finding productive starters.  Look at the 49ers, Chiefs and Lions for God's sake.  Plus they hit on their 1st and 2nd rounders.

Aside from a couple bullet points, I agree with most of this. Especially DL and CB

Getting another proper boundary CB and upgrading over Nacho, Riley and Davidson need to be priorities along with a younger RG.

Schoen to me is similar to Jerry Reese, both the good and bad. He may make some good moves but I don't see him as a leader of an organization. Maybe he grows into that. I just haven't seen it yet.

Daboll hasn't had any emotional meltdowns that I'm aware of. So that's a positive for this season. He also took over the playcalling and hasn't improved anything, even with a healthy QB. So that's a bad look for him. I'm waiting to see how he handles the rest of the season but I won't be surprised if this is his last year after another double digit loss season.

The only differences I'd make are with the GM and the HC.

I give them both a 7.

They inherited a mess that wasn't created in three seasons so there's no reason to expect it to be fixed in three. However, can any of us say that it isn't better than what they took over?

The other part of the equation that has been acknowledged is Mara's involvement/indirect influence. I truly believe that Schoen compromised on the Jones contract but is starting to assert himself and offer some push back, as witnessed in the "negotiations" with Barkley. I believe Schoen feels a sense of responsibility for hamstringing Daboll with a QB that neither of them truly wanted (hence no 5th-year option) but didn't want to upset Mara on essentially the first day of the job. Schoen knows Daboll's seat is warming and he will not fire him until they get the QB they want. And trotting Jones out there is the best way to show Mara that he needs to STFU and let them do their job.

With regards to the injury clause, I think they will also let that play out and not protect Jones. If he happens to get injured and the clause is triggered, that falls on Mara as well, as far as I'm concerned. I fell like Schoen is ready to stand up to Mara.

I am very unsure of Daboll as a head coach. Since the middle of 2022 it's been mostly real bad.

Quote from: T200 on October 21, 2024, 10:36:49 AMThe only differences I'd make are with the GM and the HC.

I give them both a 7.

They inherited a mess that wasn't created in three seasons so there's no reason to expect it to be fixed in three. However, can any of us say that it isn't better than what they took over?

The other part of the equation that has been acknowledged is Mara's involvement/indirect influence. I truly believe that Schoen compromised on the Jones contract but is starting to assert himself and offer some push back, as witnessed in the "negotiations" with Barkley. I believe Schoen feels a sense of responsibility for hamstringing Daboll with a QB that neither of them truly wanted (hence no 5th-year option) but didn't want to upset Mara on essentially the first day of the job. Schoen knows Daboll's seat is warming and he will not fire him until they get the QB they want. And trotting Jones out there is the best way to show Mara that he needs to STFU and let them do their job.

With regards to the injury clause, I think they will also let that play out and not protect Jones. If he happens to get injured and the clause is triggered, that falls on Mara as well, as far as I'm concerned. I fell like Schoen is ready to stand up to Mara.

I don't go for conspiracy theories.  All evidence suggests while Mara may voice his opinions, both Schoen and Daboll were free to make moves they felt were in the best interest of the team.  Jones was the QB they opted to sign.  In Hard Knocks, we don't see Mara voice any support for Jones, but we do hear him voice wanting to keep Barkley, who is now an Eagle.  It is hard to consider it a fact or even likely that Mara somehow vetoed Schoen's and Daboll's desire to move on from Jones.

As for the 3 years, currently, the Giants are drafting 9 (they are tied for 5th with NYG drafting 9th by virtue of strength of schedule).   As things are currently going, I think expectations should be the Giants rising up in the draft order.

Schoen and Daboll took over a team (with extra draft picks, including a 7th overall, but with cap issues) that drafted 5th, and it's likely in a few weeks, the team will be right back in that 5th slot.

It is hard to see where Schoen and Daboll have demonstrated they have improved the team's talent, roster construction, and culture if they are in the same place 3 years later as they were when they started.

Every owner gives their opinions on players, talent, etc.  They all are involved.  Stop thinking that what Mara does is unusual in football.

Quote from: Philosophers on October 21, 2024, 10:59:01 AMEvery owner gives their opinions on players, talent, etc.  They all are involved.  Stop thinking that what Mara does is unusual in football.

This is very much true.  There is no mythical owner who never says anything about how his team is run.  As a GM, you need to be able to deal with the owner, and in fairness, Mara is far easier to deal with than many of the other team owners. 

The only area where I would say Mara may come up short is in the nepotism department.   Having two members of the Mara clan (Chris Mara and Tim McDonnell) in key positions in front-office football operations is less than ideal.  Frankly, if I were a hot GM prospect, I might think twice before accepting the job.

I would want a staff whose loyalties were to me and who reported only to me.  I would want a clear line of organization that had all of the reporting to me, and I was reporting to the owner.   The two nepotism positions seriously muddies the org chart and make it not easy to instill a true sense of accountability.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 21, 2024, 10:52:57 AMI don't go for conspiracy theories.  All evidence suggests while Mara may voice his opinions, both Schoen and Daboll were free to make moves they felt were in the best interest of the team.  Jones was the QB they opted to sign.  In Hard Knocks, we don't see Mara voice any support for Jones, but we do hear him voice wanting to keep Barkley, who is now an Eagle.  It is hard to consider it a fact or even likely that Mara somehow vetoed Schoen's and Daboll's desire to move on from Jones.

As for the 3 years, currently, the Giants are drafting 9 (they are tied for 5th with NYG drafting 9th by virtue of strength of schedule).   As things are currently going, I think expectations should be the Giants rising up in the draft order.

Schoen and Daboll took over a team (with extra draft picks, including a 7th overall, but with cap issues) that drafted 5th, and it's likely in a few weeks, the team will be right back in that 5th slot.

It is hard to see where Schoen and Daboll have demonstrated they have improved the team's talent, roster construction, and culture if they are in the same place 3 years later as they were when they started.

I didn't suggest any conspiracy theory, nor did I suggest that they weren't free to make their own decisions. I'm talking human nature in an organization. Any boss who expresses his/her desire has to know that it influences those that are employed under him/her. I did not say that Mara tells Schoen and Daboll what to do. I specifically said and continue to say that it is indirect and undue influence. That's not a conspiracy theory.

There is no disagreement regarding Barkley and what we saw on HK. That's what I mean when I say Schoen is offering push back to Mara's wishes. And I truly believe it will continue this offseason when they dump Daniel.

The defense is much-improved and has undoubtedly looked the best it has in the past five years. The offensive line is easily the best we've had in 10 years. We have a stud at WR and Tracy looks to be legit. Theo Johnson should definitely get more playing time and opportunities, but that's not 100% on the coaching staff.

I don't see that this team is culturally worse than when Schoen and Daboll took over. I suspect it's much better. No griping, no complaining, no back-stabbing, no leaks. I'd say Daboll is nowhere near losing the locker room.

Quote from: T200 on October 21, 2024, 11:07:31 AMI didn't suggest any conspiracy theory, nor did I suggest that they weren't free to make their own decisions. I'm talking human nature in an organization. Any boss who expresses his/her desire has to know that it influences those that are employed under him/her. I did not say that Mara tells Schoen and Daboll what to do. I specifically said and continue to say that it is indirect and undue influence. That's not a conspiracy theory.

There is no disagreement regarding Barkley and what we saw on HK. That's what I mean when I say Schoen is offering push back to Mara's wishes. And I truly believe it will continue this offseason when they dump Daniel.

The defense is much-improved and has undoubtedly looked the best it has in the past five years. The offensive line is easily the best we've had in 10 years. We have a stud at WR and Tracy looks to be legit. Theo Johnson should definitely get more playing time and opportunities, but that's not 100% on the coaching staff.

I don't see that this team is culturally worse than when Schoen and Daboll took over. I suspect it's much better. No griping, no complaining, no back-stabbing, no leaks. I'd say Daboll is nowhere near losing the locker room.

So are you suggesting that Schoen and Daboll are weak?   I am sorry, but a GM should have the strength to stand up for what he believes is right.   Making decisions just to please your boss is the opposite of a good or strong GM. 

There may not currently be any griping, complaining, or backstabbing, but as witnessed by the Banks play, there isn't any passion either.  These players seem happy to just playout the game and collect their paychecks.

As for the defense, it didn't exactly impress yesterday, and that was even with the Eagles knowing the Giant's offense wasn't a threat to put up many points.

Jones is a boat anchor that they can't get rid of due to the ever ongoing faith given to the Manning family (and their support of Jones).

Hopefully, they get a chance to push forward without Jones as Jones is not an NFL caliber starter.

How many coaches has Jones had? Shurmur, Judge, and now Daboll?

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 21, 2024, 11:12:34 AMSo are you suggesting that Schoen and Daboll are weak?   I am sorry, but a GM should have the strength to stand up for what he believes is right.   Making decisions just to please your boss is the opposite of a good or strong GM. 

There may not currently be any griping, complaining, or backstabbing, but as witnessed by the Banks play, there isn't any passion either.  These players seem happy to just playout the game and collect their paychecks.

As for the defense, it didn't exactly impress yesterday, and that was even with the Eagles knowing the Giant's offense wasn't a threat to put up many points.

That's clearly not what I said or suggested. However, I understand your views of the GM and HC are less than stellar and you're going to see what you choose. The reason Barkley is not a Giant is because Schoen stuck to his guns. So to think that I'm suggesting he's weak is way off target.

You are right to call out Banks on that ONE PLAY but it's extremely unfair to paint the rest of the players in that same light because of one guy. That's like saying Nabers won't be good because Jones isn't.

One bad game out of seven doesn't tell me that the defense is a problem this year. Philly and Dallas have owned us for the past 10+ years.