Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 22, 2024, 12:04:30 PMA younger offensive coach:  Like

Ben McAdoo
Pat Shurmur
Brian Daboll
Joe Judge (technically more of a ST coach, but he was the Pat's WR coach his last year)

Did I hire these men? Did I say they were the best candidates? No. Like I said, I have general preferences but they don't control the analysis. So the relevant question--to the extent there is one here--would be did I think these men were the best candidate for the job at the time. And I didn't. I railed against Shurmur--called him milquetoast more times than I can remember (and he was far from young at the time of his hiring having failed with the Browns). Did not like Judge, despite many around here loving his meaningless coach-speak in his introductory conference. Weren't you enthusiastic about him at that time? "Punching people in the mouth" and whatnot?

QuoteI don't see a reason to believe the 4th time will be the charm.

Unless you inherently believe that a young, offensive-minded coach (and I'm not agreeing that Shurmur or Judge were) is somehow statistically less-likely to be a good head coach, I don't understand this. Ultimately, you have to find the right person. Are the Rams regretting hiring a young offensive-minded coach? The 49ers? Of course not.

We don't even know who the candidates are but you're willing to write them off at this time based upon the performance of other men? Seems strange to me. I'm looking at Belichik's recent track history (especially without Brady) to formulate my opinions on him.

QuoteThe last time the Giants enjoyed success was when they had a strong, tough-minded head coach, Tom Coughlin, who set the right culture for this team.  Is Bill Belichick the only one that could set the culture?  Probably not, but outside of Mike Vabrel, I don't know another HC with the status and ability to undertake the sort of massive effort needed to fix this clearly broken team.

Belichik's ability to generate "culture" did little to help the Patriots win in his final years there. Same for Vrabel.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on October 22, 2024, 12:34:36 PMDid I hire these men? Did I say they were the best candidates? No. Like I said, I have general preferences but they don't control the analysis. So the relevant question--to the extent there is one here--would be did I think these men were the best candidate for the job at the time. And I didn't. I railed against Shurmur--called him milquetoast more times than I can remember (and he was far from young at the time of his hiring having failed with the Browns). Did not like Judge, despite many around here loving his meaningless coach-speak in his introductory conference. Weren't you enthusiastic about him at that time? "Punching people in the mouth" and whatnot?
Unless you inherently believe that a young, offensive-minded coach (and I'm not agreeing that Shurmur or Judge were) is somehow statistically less-likely to be a good head coach, I don't understand this. Ultimately, you have to find the right person. Are the Rams regretting hiring a young offensive-minded coach? The 49ers? Of course not.

We don't even know who the candidates are but you're willing to write them off at this time based upon the performance of other men? Seems strange to me. I'm looking at Belichik's track history (especially without Brady) to formulate my opinions on him.

Belichik's ability to generate "culture" did little to help the Patriots win in his final years there. Same for Vrabel.

The point I was making is that I don't think your approach of hiring some young, offensive-minded assistant head coach is going to work out.   It sort of reminds me of the definition of insanity.   

The same flawed organization can keep hiring new head coaches over and over again, but until someone is strong enough to shake up the underlying way things are done, it will just be more of the same. 

Unless you are the rare alpha-type head coach like Joe Judge (he may not be a good coach, but he certainly took control of the organization), most rookie first-time head coaches lack the clout to make the sort of changes that need to be made. You need a guy who has done it before and is strong enough to shake things up.  There is a reason why most people in the know NFL mocked or criticized the Giants after seeing how things were done via Hard Knocks.  A bunch of guys hanging out in the GM's office talking about who to acquire like they were a bunch of guys at the local bar talking about their fantasy football teams is not the path to success.

From what I have seen, Joe Schoen lacks the vision and leadership to be a true culture setter.  Paired with the right head coach, I don't see that as an issue, but Schoen needs to be paired with a strong culture setter with vision.   In my opinion, that's a tall order to ask of a new comer, even a talented one.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 22, 2024, 12:45:28 PMThe point I was making is that I don't think your approach of hiring some young, offensive-minded assistant head coach is going to work out.  It sort of reminds me of the definition of insanity.

Suffice it to say that we fundamentally disagree that Shurmur and Judge fall within the definition of coaches I generally gravitate towards and the corresponding accusation of "insanity." I find it rather illogical to dismiss a category of potential coaches because others bearing vague resemblances failed--if that were applied broadly, it would probably preclude hiring anyone.

QuoteThe same flawed organization can keep hiring new head coaches over and over again, but until someone is strong enough to shake up the underlying way things are done, it will just be more of the same.

Unless you are the rare alpha-type head coach like Joe Judge (he may not be a good coach, but he certainly took control of the organization), most rookie first-time head coaches lack the clout to make the sort of changes that need to be made. You need a guy who has done it before and is strong enough to shake things up.  There is a reason why most people in the know NFL mocked or criticized the Giants after seeing how things were done via Hard Knocks.  A bunch of guys hanging out in the GM's office talking about who to acquire like they were a bunch of guys at the local bar talking about their fantasy football teams is not the path to success.

From what I have seen, Joe Schoen lacks the vision and leadership to be a true culture setter.  Paired with the right head coach, I don't see that as an issue, but Schoen needs to be paired with a strong culture setter with vision.  In my opinion, that's a tall order to ask of a new comer, even a talented one.

I get what you're after with a Belichik-style hiring and I can respect the position on this (without agreeing about everything that is baked in), but it does little to affect my own thoughts as to Belichik and whether he would improve the chances of this team to win.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 22, 2024, 12:10:52 PMWho do you think taught former 6th-round pick Tom Brady how to become a winning quarterback and what a winning team looked like?  Tom shared with the Bucs what he learned from Bill Belichick, which certainly helped the Bucs and Bruce Arians.

To your suggestion that the Giants just need to do proper interviews and hire the best candidate, I would answer that those interviews will be conducted by the same failed organization and culture who have swung and missed on every coaching hire since Tom Coughlin left.

If it is as simple as imparting wisdom, then it is a bit concerning that he himself drafted Mac Jones in Round 1, Bailey Zappe in Round 4, signed a vet in Hoyer and another in Super Bowl Starter and former MVP Cam Newton, along with another 4th in Jarrett Stidham. How come he wasn't able to do even half of that again? Why couldn't help teach any of them how to be winning players? How does this make anyone feel comfortable with him selecting a new QB?

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 22, 2024, 12:45:28 PMThe point I was making is that I don't think your approach of hiring some young, offensive-minded assistant head coach is going to work out.   It sort of reminds me of the definition of insanity.   

The same flawed organization can keep hiring new head coaches over and over again, but until someone is strong enough to shake up the underlying way things are done, it will just be more of the same.

Unless you are the rare alpha-type head coach like Joe Judge (he may not be a good coach, but he certainly took control of the organization), most rookie first-time head coaches lack the clout to make the sort of changes that need to be made. You need a guy who has done it before and is strong enough to shake things up.  There is a reason why most people in the know NFL mocked or criticized the Giants after seeing how things were done via Hard Knocks.  A bunch of guys hanging out in the GM's office talking about who to acquire like they were a bunch of guys at the local bar talking about their fantasy football teams is not the path to success.

From what I have seen, Joe Schoen lacks the vision and leadership to be a true culture setter.  Paired with the right head coach, I don't see that as an issue, but Schoen needs to be paired with a strong culture setter with vision.   In my opinion, that's a tall order to ask of a new comer, even a talented one.

What if that same flawed organization were to hire Belichick? If you can't trust their judgment, what does that say of them, if they think Belichick is a good idea?

How can BB be worse than what they have been doing?  Regress?  What the hell state do you think this franchise is in right now? 

I think Daboll is getting too much blame for the losing seasons here and it's too early to be advocating for his replacement. He wanted Jayden Daniels but it wasn't in the cards. He has three journeymen plugging the Oline Holes and two Draft Picks who aren't cutting it. I think he's coaching scared right now. I don't however think bringing in BB after the season as a consultant, if somehow the season can be salvaged to at least 8 wins is a bad idea. I think they should have had a better plan at backup QB to take over for Jones if he failed this season. With all respect to Drew Lock, he had a rough upbringing too. There were ten better choices than Lock. No cap? xxxxxxxx, make the space. Ryan Tannehill is sitting on a couch. I like Schoen as a person but he's become a bit too cavalier, with the hard decisions. Saquon Barkley just explained that to him.

I think if he was going to get hired, it would have been last season.

I really think this is a moot point. I don't envisage Dabs going anywhere.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on October 22, 2024, 01:37:24 PMI think if he was going to get hired, it would have been last season.

I really think this is a moot point. I don't envisage Dabs going anywhere.

Exactly, Ed. 

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on October 22, 2024, 01:37:24 PMI think if he was going to get hired, it would have been last season.

I really think this is a moot point. I don't envisage Dabs going anywhere.

Ed,

Here was Mara on his expectations for 2024

QuoteMara never makes a preseason prediction regarding how many games he expects the team to win, and he doesn't demand his coaches lead the team to a postseason berth. But he has high hopes and his standards for success are never compromised.

"I want to walk off the field at the end of the season (and know) we're moving in the right direction," he said.

Is Mara okay with the Giants taking "baby steps" toward long-term improvement, or does the team need to finish with a winning record?

"I don't know how to quantify that," Mara said. "I want to walk off the field at the end of the season like we're moving in the right direction, we really are. We've got a great foundation here and there's every reason to be optimistic going forward. I guess about as simple a way as I can say it."

Barring some sort of miracle turnaround, do you think that Schoen and Daboll have met the owner's expectations?  If not, does Mara do nothing after 3 seasons?

As @Philosophers said this team has a dearth of talent and no franchise QB.  Without either of those, how does Mara feel like "we're moving in the right direction"?   Hell, they may even have a worse record than the team Schoen and Daboll took over by the end of this season.

Mara will need to have a honest conversation. If he foisted the Jones extension on JS, then Mara has to carry the can for the poor QB.

Of course, if it's JS's sole decision, then that's on him but I think firing him after 3 years is too soon.

Personally, I think either explanation is plausible but I doubt we will ever know.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on October 22, 2024, 02:06:28 PMMara will need to have a honest conversation. If he foisted the Jones extension on JS, then Mara has to carry the can for the poor QB.

Of course, if it's JS's sole decision, then that's on him but I think firing him after 3 years is too soon.

Personally, I think either explanation is plausible but I doubt we will ever know.

GMs tend to have longer shelf lives than Head Coaches.  I see Daboll being fired (especially after what happened at the end of last season) being more likely than Schoen (or both) being fired.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 22, 2024, 02:13:03 PMGMs tend to have longer shelf lives than Head Coaches.  I see Daboll being fired (especially after what happened at the end of last season) being more likely than Schoen (or both) being fired.

I think Schoen will give him his own QB but he'll have a shortish leash to get this kick started

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on October 22, 2024, 02:19:25 PMI think Schoen will give him his own QB but he'll have a shortish leash to get this kick started

Here's the thing, Ed.  Next year's QB class is not looking too good.  So, there doesn't seem to be a clear or assured path to acquiring that QB.  If so, do you keep giving passes until that can happen?

The only way I see Daboll getting canned this year is if he completely loses the locker room. This season will be lost to key injuries and lackluster QB play, not because of coaching.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 22, 2024, 02:27:49 PMHere's the thing, Ed.  Next year's QB class is not looking too good.  So, there doesn't seem to be a clear or assured path to acquiring that QB.  If so, do you keep giving passes until that can happen?

I'll rephrase.

I think Dab's gets another go with another QB. They inherited a team bereft of talent at all positions, they schemed up a play book to limp into the playoffs, made the most of their bounces and won a playoff game. He does have what looks like the makings of a good defence, and hopefully Sunday was an aberration. So all things considered, I think he gets another go.

I understand this might be a universally popular view. But it's how I see it.