Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 24, 2024, 01:57:44 PMI define "huge" as a player who is or potentially is a franchise-caliber QB.  Backups or journey-level QBS who you believe to be better than Jones don't make the cut, by my definition

 
That's exactly why I said "I DON'T KNOW ABOUT HUGE".   

Quote from: TDToomer on October 24, 2024, 02:04:33 PM
That's exactly why I said "I DON'T KNOW ABOUT HUGE".   

That's why I gave you my definition 

Quote from: MrGap92 on October 24, 2024, 02:01:51 PMI think huge, I think the Stafford and Wilson deals. Fields was just acquired for a mere 6th round pick and is now riding the bench.

In other words, I agree on this.

You could even throw in the Goff deal, even though, at the time, the Lions didn't realize they were acquiring their franchise QB.

If this season goes completely sideways and the team wins 2 or less games the rest of the way....All promises are off. 

Quote from: Fletch on October 24, 2024, 10:43:54 AMThe only reason Shoen and Daboll are getting this long leash is because   they fired so many coaches in such a short o period of time; not because either is any good.

This is actually a good thing. Otherwise, Mara would fire Schoen and Daboll, pleasing many here, and convince the new guys to keep Jones.

I disagree that neither are any good. I think they are; they need more time to continue turning this thing around. People expecting a 10+ year problem to be fixed in three are going to be disappointed, especially without the right talent on the roster. The lack of talent is getting better and will continue to do so.

Bobby Skinner made a good point in his Q&A podcast that Schoen has been drafting to fill need and plugging short term solutions in FA.

Quote from: Fletch on October 24, 2024, 11:25:33 AMWhich team ? Not the Giants I reckon. I suspect Jones is coming back next year also and, the Giants draft a TE and a running back in rounds 1 and 2 repectively to "help Daniel".

With all due respect, we can keep drafting "all the help for Daniel" but until we get this line solved even halfway prepare for more of what you are seeing.

Why is it so hard for the powers that be to admit that DJ is a complete bust, barely even backup worthy.  Much like Neal.

Their personnel acquisition is terrible both via draft and free agency.  Way too many misses and too rarely a star.

Quote from: Ed Vette on October 24, 2024, 03:13:42 PMBobby Skinner made a good point in his Q&A podcast that Schoen has been drafting to fill need and plugging short term solutions in FA.

That's been part of the problem actually. Half measures. Oddly enough, the nephew actually did make a good point in Hard Knocks. "What is our identity?"

We've never really committed to a rebuild during this era of suck.

• In 2011, Eli won the Superbowl after the team meandered in mediocrity for most of the season.
• I think this convinced the Maras that the roster no longer mattered. Just get Eli into the playoffs and anything could happen.
• This became the strategy afterward. Patch the team, get rid of whatever's not working, and try to get Eli another run. Even firing Reese and McAdoo in 2017, bringing in Shurmur (a QB guru) in 2018, Gettleman as GM, and drafting Barkley, were all still part of this same strategy - patch the team, get Eli weapons, and try to get him into the playoffs.
• It became clear after 2018 this wasn't viable anymore, Eli was now "the problem". So the team drafts the closest thing they can find to Eli - David Cutcliffe-recommended Daniel Jones. Shurmur's in place to guide him along.
• After Jones reached the lineup, the team philosophy became "prop up Daniel Jones". I believe every move made since has had that as a focus. Schoen and Daboll were likely chosen because they probably said in interviews that they could unlock Jones - other GM and coach candidates probably wanted another QB.

In this process, the Giants have never committed to a full rebuild. It's been patch this, swap that out, blame a guy for the losing, replace that guy. Is there a philosophy? Who are the Giants? The team that props up Daniel Jones? Sadly the closest thing we've had to someone creating an identity is the 2 years of Wink as DC when teams knew we were going to blitz like a weasel in a chicken coop.

So that's why part of me feels that the team needs a full rebuild from the ground up. Blow it all up. Barring that, sit down and decide what they want this team to be, and start building with that in mind. We want a fierce pass rush? Fine. Resign Ojulari and Thibodeaux (to sensible contracts) and get another pass rusher and some heft on the DL. Want a wide open attack? Fine. Draft Tetairoa McMillan and then find QBs who will throw the ball downfield to him and Nabers.

Quote from: AYM on October 24, 2024, 04:23:34 PMThat's been part of the problem actually. Half measures. Oddly enough, the nephew actually did make a good point in Hard Knocks. "What is our identity?"

We've never really committed to a rebuild during this era of suck.

• In 2011, Eli won the Superbowl after the team meandered in mediocrity for most of the season.
• I think this convinced the Maras that the roster no longer mattered. Just get Eli into the playoffs and anything could happen.
• This became the strategy afterward. Patch the team, get rid of whatever's not working, and try to get Eli another run. Even firing Reese and McAdoo in 2017, bringing in Shurmur (a QB guru) in 2018, Gettleman as GM, and drafting Barkley, were all still part of this same strategy - patch the team, get Eli weapons, and try to get him into the playoffs.
• It became clear after 2018 this wasn't viable anymore, Eli was now "the problem". So the team drafts the closest thing they can find to Eli - David Cutcliffe-recommended Daniel Jones. Shurmur's in place to guide him along.
• After Jones reached the lineup, the team philosophy became "prop up Daniel Jones". I believe every move made since has had that as a focus. Schoen and Daboll were likely chosen because they probably said in interviews that they could unlock Jones - other GM and coach candidates probably wanted another QB.

In this process, the Giants have never committed to a full rebuild. It's been patch this, swap that out, blame a guy for the losing, replace that guy. Is there a philosophy? Who are the Giants? The team that props up Daniel Jones? Sadly the closest thing we've had to someone creating an identity is the 2 years of Wink as DC when teams knew we were going to blitz like a weasel in a chicken coop.

So that's why part of me feels that the team needs a full rebuild from the ground up. Blow it all up. Barring that, sit down and decide what they want this team to be, and start building with that in mind. We want a fierce pass rush? Fine. Resign Ojulari and Thibodeaux (to sensible contracts) and get another pass rusher and some heft on the DL. Want a wide open attack? Fine. Draft Tetairoa McMillan and then find QBs who will throw the ball downfield to him and Nabers.

What does full rebuild mean? The average NFL career is what 4-5 years. Most players are bottom of the roster types that are not making any money compared with the 1/2 dozen players who are and the stars of the team.

It is a cap league. I am so sick of people blaming Eli and trying to bandage together a  team excuse.

So full rebuild means new GM, new coach, and new QB in 2012?

I wasn't crazy about the Barkley pick but at this point does it really matter? He was a good Giant and he looks to be a good (gasp) Eagle  Best player on this team in years. The team has invested in Evan Engram ; Baker; Kadariuis Toney with a high draft pick. You're calling Barkley out still?

So letting a balloon head like Mcadoo pick Mahomes and have no other draft picks and run his high school football playbook would have been satisfactory to you?

With hindsight and watching his peers Rivers and Big Ben play on for 2 more years and on a playoff team; trying to work it with Eli didn't sound like a bad idea.

I have always believed that you draft the Best Player Available in the first four rounds with the exception of QB unless you need one. Rounds 5-7 for depth but the best players. If you draft for need you don't necessarily get the best player available.

In FA bring in a solution that you can get five years out of, like Bobby O. That was one of the best FA signings he's made.

Quote from: Fletch on October 24, 2024, 04:32:58 PMWhat does full rebuild mean? The average NFL career is what 4-5 years. Most players are bottom of the roster types that are not making any money compared with the 1/2 dozen players who are and the stars of the team.

It is a cap league. I am so sick of people blaming Eli and trying to bandage together a  team excuse.

So full rebuild means new GM, new coach, and new QB in 2012?

I wasn't crazy about the Barkley pick but at this point does it really matter? He was a good Giant and he looks to be a good (gasp) Eagle  Best player on this team in years. The team has invested in Evan Engram ; Baker; Kadariuis Toney with a high draft pick. You're calling Barkley out still?

So letting a balloon head like Mcadoo pick Mahomes and have no other draft picks and run his high school football playbook would have been satisfactory to you?

With hindsight and watching his peers Rivers and Big Ben play on for 2 more years and on a playoff team; trying to work it with Eli didn't sound like a bad idea.

It would've meant a new GM, HC, and QB in 2018; and blowing up the roster and building a new one from the ground up.

If you want to go back to the Eli years, it means doing an honest rebuild instead of patching the team and looking for lightning to strike. As an example, in the 2014 draft, 2 foundational picks were available for the Giants - Aaron Donald and Zach Martin. Consensus was either would've been great. We picked the shiny toy - Beckham. Nice player for awhile, but he didn't translate into wins.

And for the record - YES. We'd have been better off with McAdoo and Mahomes than Shurmur and the shell of Eli. I do hope you're joking there.

But in 2024, what's our philosophy? Teams play the Giants, what are they afraid of? What do we hang our hat on?  What's the strength of this team going to be? Even Tim McDonnell seemed to recognize this as a problem.

What team doesn't look to "prop up" their QB?  Is there another option besides putting good skill players around and a good OL in front of a QB?

The Giants had plenty of resources to rebuild from 2019 -2022 when they had 7 1st round draft picks over those 4 years.

They got

2 all-pros
1 promising DE/OLB
1 bust
2 absolute no-shows
1 QB that is overwhelmingly believed to be NOT the guy.

So they went 3 for 7 in those 4 years and there could be a 4th if you are someone that thinks Neal can go from bust to contributor.

How many high round draft picks would you get in a "full rebuild"? And will they hit on 5of 7 or better?

Quote from: Ed Vette on October 24, 2024, 03:13:42 PMBobby Skinner made a good point in his Q&A podcast that Schoen has been drafting to fill need and plugging short term solutions in FA.

I really like the Job that Schoen is doing. Outside the Jones resigning I really like our drafts and especially FA. Everyone would have missed with Neal. I think a qb of their own with an even better roster and we are going somewhere. Can't change decades worth of losing in 3 years.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 24, 2024, 06:31:43 PMI really like the Job that Schoen is doing. Outside the Jones resigning I really like our drafts and especially FA. Everyone would have missed with Neal. I think a qb of their own with an even better roster and we are going somewhere. Can't change decades worth of losing in 3 years.

Rank the top 15 players in the Giants.