Big Blue Huddle

There seems to be some confusion on this board.

1. The decision of which QB starts a game is exclusively the head coach's. The job of the head coach is to try to win the next game on the schedule. That's it. He has no other job during the regular season. If Daboll thinks Jones helps the team win the next game, that's who he'll start. The HC is not concerned with next season, or the cap, or the draft. The GM and the owner do not decide who starts at QB, though they might be consulted or given a head's up in such cases.

2. Jones is not currently the Giants' QB because of John Mara. Mara makes a lot of really bad decisions all the time, and his impact on the team's quality is overwhelmingly negative, even though he seems like a decent sort. But Jones as a QB belongs at this point to Daboll, who starts him, and Joe Schoen, who signed him. He's their QB. Their decision. No one is playing Jones to make Mara happy. That's nonsense.

3. The Giants are 2-6. They will probably end the season 5-12 or something like that, which is what I expected. I don't expect Daboll to survive this bad record. The Giants will be in search of a new head coach at season's end, and I suspect Mara will make another poor choice, though hopefully not as poor this time as Joe Judge. 

Quote from: coggs on October 29, 2024, 12:14:33 PMBecause they need to protect the cap for next year.  If he gets hurt and his salary becomes guaranteed then you can kiss next year goodbye, too.

That's all on Mara. He feels bad because they "did even to scree this kid up."

Quote from: T200 on October 29, 2024, 01:39:46 PMThat's all on Mara. He feels bad because they "did even to scree this kid up."

I agree.  But no need to compound the mistakes of the past.

Quote from: Ed Vette on October 29, 2024, 12:36:53 PMThe job of the Head Coach is to win games. I also don't think this organization would push to sit Jones for the sake of the injury clause. At least not on the surface. I think if Jones had a similar game that he had against the Eagles, then the conversation would be to prepare and start Drew Lock to see if the results would be better. In my evaluation, Jones played much better, although far from perfect. I think what we may see is the Giants making a change after the Bye. Or when they are completely out of Playoff contention.

You make a compelling point. A shakeup this week is not out of the realm of possibility. Many teams have done that and would do that. I don't see it with this Organization, but Mara does listen to Schoen.

Then they are stupider than I thought.  They need to be able to see the big picture. Even if Jones plays well, by Jones standard, at best they go 6-11?  Does it really benefit anyone to go 6-11 over 2-15?  I am not going to by the "end the losing culture" argument.  Or worry about the message it is sending to the fans.  You are also assuming Daboll and Schoen are not looking at what is happening and saying how they can't wait to get rid of him.  Black Monday in Giants land is not going to be about the coach/gm getting fired, it is going to be them telling Jones they are cutting him and taking the cap hit.  I honestly think he has been so bad that they are willing to cut him without a guarantee they can pick someone up in FA or in the draft.

Quote from: coggs on October 31, 2024, 07:52:10 AMI agree.  But no need to compound the mistakes of the past.

I think the majority of the folks here would rather have been in a better position to draft Jones's replacement this past offseason. But we weren't because of those meaningless wins. Repeating a mistake is more detrimental, IMHO, because it shouts to everyone that "we haven't learned a damned thing."

Quote from: coggs on October 31, 2024, 07:56:35 AMThen they are stupider than I thought.  They need to be able to see the big picture. Even if Jones plays well, by Jones standard, at best they go 6-11?  Does it really benefit anyone to go 6-11 over 2-15?  I am not going to by the "end the losing culture" argument.  Or worry about the message it is sending to the fans.  You are also assuming Daboll and Schoen are not looking at what is happening and saying how they can't wait to get rid of him.  Black Monday in Giants land is not going to be about the coach/gm getting fired, it is going to be them telling Jones they are cutting him and taking the cap hit.  I honestly think he has been so bad that they are willing to cut him without a guarantee they can pick someone up in FA or in the draft.

The money paid to Jones if he got injured only affects one season's cap. Missing out on a QB has long-term effects. THAT'S the big picture.

And yes, 6-11 is much worse than 2-15 when it comes to draft positioning. We just saw that firsthand and we weren't able to draft the QB Schoen and Daboll wanted. I don't see four more wins with Jones at the helm. Leave him in.

Quote from: coggs on October 31, 2024, 07:56:35 AMThen they are stupider than I thought.  They need to be able to see the big picture. Even if Jones plays well, by Jones standard, at best they go 6-11?  Does it really benefit anyone to go 6-11 over 2-15?  I am not going to by the "end the losing culture" argument.  Or worry about the message it is sending to the fans.  You are also assuming Daboll and Schoen are not looking at what is happening and saying how they can't wait to get rid of him.  Black Monday in Giants land is not going to be about the coach/gm getting fired, it is going to be them telling Jones they are cutting him and taking the cap hit.  I honestly think he has been so bad that they are willing to cut him without a guarantee they can pick someone up in FA or in the draft.

As long as he gives them the best chances of winning, they won't sit him. It would be completely out of character for this Organization to do anything else. I've seen no indication over the years to indicate otherwise.

Quote from: T200 on October 31, 2024, 08:05:48 AMI think the majority of the folks here would rather have been in a better position to draft Jones's replacement this past offseason. But we weren't because of those meaningless wins. Repeating a mistake is more detrimental, IMHO, because it shouts to everyone that "we haven't learned a damned thing."
The money paid to Jones if he got injured only affects one season's cap. Missing out on a QB has long-term effects. THAT'S the big picture.

And yes, 6-11 is much worse than 2-15 when it comes to draft positioning. We just saw that firsthand and we weren't able to draft the QB Schoen and Daboll wanted. I don't see four more wins with Jones at the helm. Leave him in.

If Jones's full cap # for next season is on the roster, than the 2025 season is dead before it starts.  He will count $41MM.

Quote from: T200 on October 31, 2024, 08:05:48 AMI think the majority of the folks here would rather have been in a better position to draft Jones's replacement this past offseason. But we weren't because of those meaningless wins. Repeating a mistake is more detrimental, IMHO, because it shouts to everyone that "we haven't learned a damned thing."
The money paid to Jones if he got injured only affects one season's cap. Missing out on a QB has long-term effects. THAT'S the big picture.

And yes, 6-11 is much worse than 2-15 when it comes to draft positioning. We just saw that firsthand and we weren't able to draft the QB Schoen and Daboll wanted. I don't see four more wins with Jones at the helm. Leave him in.

That is a different argument.  The issue is if he gets hurt and the salary becomes guaranteed. 

Quote from: Ed Vette on October 31, 2024, 08:43:10 AMAs long as he gives them the best chances of winning, they won't sit him. It would be completely out of character for this Organization to do anything else. I've seen no indication over the years to indicate otherwise.

If they were really interested in the best chance of winning, they would not have told Wilson that he would be the back-up if he signed here.  Nothing wrong with saying he would start as the #2 on the depth chart, but had the opportunity to take over as #1.

Quote from: coggs on October 31, 2024, 12:37:37 PMIf Jones's full cap # for next season is on the roster, than the 2025 season is dead before it starts.  He will count $41MM.

That is a different argument.  The issue is if he gets hurt and the salary becomes guaranteed. 

I'm pretty sure the Giants will field a team in 2025 at that cap number.

Yes, they are two different issues: his cap number if the injury clause is triggered, and being in a position to draft his replacement.

Quote from: T200 on October 31, 2024, 12:45:49 PMI'm pretty sure the Giants will field a team in 2025 at that cap number.

Yes, they are two different issues: his cap number if the injury clause is triggered, and being in a position to draft his replacement.

not a good one.

Quote from: coggs on October 31, 2024, 12:54:02 PMnot a good one.

10 years and counting...

Quote from: T200 on October 31, 2024, 01:02:49 PM10 years and counting...

Technically this isn't correct.

The Giants made the playoffs in 2016 and 2022.

In 2016 Eli played lights out, but OBJ and Shepard dropped several key passes.

In 2022 they won a playoff game with Daniel Jones at the helm.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on October 31, 2024, 01:08:33 PMTechnically this isn't correct.

The Giants made the playoffs in 2016 and 2022.

In 2016 Eli played lights out, but OBJ and Shepard dropped several key passes.

In 2022 they won a playoff game with Daniel Jones at the helm.

In both of those seasons, the Giants stumbled into a WC slot. If you consider those successful seasons, be my guest.

Daniel Jones is 1-1 in the playoffs in six seasons. He cannot be expected to lead this team to sustained victories. I know you want to wait until the end of the season to cast your ballot. What he does in the remaining 9 games isn't going to move the needle one way or another for me.

Quote from: coggs on October 31, 2024, 12:39:04 PMIf they were really interested in the best chance of winning, they would not have told Wilson that he would be the back-up if he signed here.  Nothing wrong with saying he would start as the #2 on the depth chart, but had the opportunity to take over as #1.

Giants are not interested in a QB competition. Thet interested in Daniel Jones being here as the starting QB; helping him out with other players to make it easier for him; and doing the right thing by him. They are clearly in love with the guy. Trubisky was the closest thing to any serviceable starting QB that could have taken Jones job. And he didn't want it because Jones was here. All of these things are not coincidence.

Quote from: T200 on October 31, 2024, 01:19:49 PMIn both of those seasons, the Giants stumbled into a WC slot. If you consider those successful seasons, be my guest.

Daniel Jones is 1-1 in the playoffs in six seasons. He cannot be expected to lead this team to sustained victories. I know you want to wait until the end of the season to cast your ballot. What he does in the remaining 9 games isn't going to move the needle one way or another for me.

Fair enough, but wouldn't you say the Giants then stumbled into the playoffs in 2007 as well? However they won the superbowl.

My point is there have been glimpses of promise throughout the years, it hasn't been all bad.