Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: AZGiantFan on October 30, 2024, 01:31:23 PMI think this might be an oversimplistic view.  People's judgement changes over time.  For myself, I started out as a supporter of Jones, although I wasn't fooled by the smoke and mirrors of 2022. But I completely agreed with Mara (and still do) that the Giants had done everything possible to screw him up.  I wanted to see how he'd do with at least average OL support and a good weapon.  This season was that chance. 

Daboll hindered that with his ridiculous preseason that sent him out in game 1 with only one half of live game time after being out nearly a year.  But the rust did come off, quicker than I expected, and he had a few decent games.  But then he didn't continue that.  After those decent games I wanted to wait until the end of the season to draw a conclusion.

But at this point I am below 10% chance of anything positive happening.  And if they decide to sit him to avoid triggering the injury clause I'd not quibble.  Because the worst possible case would be a double whammy of him getting a severe injury, killing the CAP for next year, coupled with Locke/DeVito/FA QB coming in and winning a few games and killing their draft position. 

Although I am also utterly skittish of the Giants' ability to find and draft a QB and develop him.  I don't know if Daboll really can be a QB guru, because it doesn't seem like he's done much for Jones.  And beyond that I have little confidence in his ability as a coach, from his mismanagement of the preseason to his volatile outbursts to his penchant for putting certain players in his doghouse.  Essentially he's shown me nothing.

AZ, I heartily agree with your first four paragraphs and couldn't have said it better myself.
I too, was a supporter of Jones and also thought this was the "prove it" year for him. Unfortunately,, he hasn't proven it and I admit after this season it's time to pull the plug.
But I'm ok though with Schoen so far. First time GM who learned from Beane in Buffalo, I knew there would be bumps and misfires along the way, but I think he has made some good picks and will get better.
Thus far I am not impressed with the supposed QB Guru we have as a HC.

Quote from: ozzie on October 30, 2024, 05:13:39 PMAZ, I heartily agree with your first four paragraphs and couldn't have said it better myself.
I too, was a supporter of Jones and also thought this was the "prove it" year for him. Unfortunately,, he hasn't proven it and I admit after this season it's time to pull the plug.
But I'm ok though with Schoen so far. First time GM who learned from Beane in Buffalo, I knew there would be bumps and misfires along the way, but I think he has made some good picks and will get better.
Thus far I am not impressed with the supposed QB Guru we have as a HC.

I don't want to change your mind, not what I am trying do

But genuine question, how can we judge a QB guru, if he has not gotten anything to work with?

If you put lipstick on a pig, its still a pig. Shouldn't they give him a piece of clay that is more moldable or of higher quality before canning him?

QB Gurus arent going to make anyone good, the ability and talent still has top be there for them to "unlock" it, or at the very least to some extent. no?

Quote from: MrGap92 on October 29, 2024, 05:21:35 PMWow, such a high bar to clear, right?

IDC who the teams are, he won as many game last season than Jones has this year and last combined. Throw in Tyrods against the Eagles and Redskins, and Jones's backups have won more than he has. That is just a fact of life.

Also, great job putting words in my mouth lol

So you believe QBs win games? And that the other 21 players, coaches and officials don't affect Ws and Ls? In games 2, 3 and 4 this year, Jones played very well leading his own coach to say he "was locked in". Yet the  Giants went 1 and 2. Daboll again stated in his post game presser that "it wasn't Daniel's fault.

Of course you're going to disagree - but a QB is only as good as his supporting cast. This isn't tennis.

Quote from: kingm56 on October 29, 2024, 06:26:00 PMWhat I find interesting is when fans chose to consider quality of opponents.  In 2019, 60% of DJs TDs/yards game against three opponents with bottom 5 defenses and a combined record of 13-34-1 (Wash, Jets and Det). In 2022, DJ feasted against bottom tier defenses (Houston, Ind, and Minn) and struggled against top-tier defenses (Dal and Phili).  Some fans also don't want to discuss that the 'magical road playoff' win came against the NFL's #31 defense. It's something I find humorous.

The Vikings were 14 and 3 that year with many believing they were a Super Bowl contender. The last time I looked, I didn't see an asterisk next to the W that said "but the Vikings had a bad defense."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Giantleap56 on October 30, 2024, 09:07:22 AM boll is a problem. If you are going to scrutinize Jones for that then you have to call into question the two point conversion which was totally unnecessary. You also have to call into question the special teams. The defense not getting there on an all out blitz and Wilson just chucking the ball to his receiver and getting a TD. That is coaching. Then you have to question the GM for having to Tattoos from Fantasy Island running around with no catch radius. You have to call out Nabers for dropping balls again.
Daboll is a problem he should be fired he has literally made Jones worse. Daboll has cost the Giants games. The fact that he threw Jones under the bus basically will lose him the locker room. This is the guy that say we have to look at the tapes. The other players now know who the real Daboll is. He makes his offensive lineman look weak because he needs chip blocks this is your prized free agent acquisition and he needs chip blocks.

Excellent points. But you're trying to make a rational case that there are a variety of reasons why teams lose games, especially the officials. But the growing body of Jones haters will still be convinced that all of the losses are on the QB and all the Giants need is a new one and all will be well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: todge on October 30, 2024, 06:05:25 PMThe Vikings were 14 and 3 that year with many believing they were a Super Bowl contender. The last time I looked, I didn't see an asterisk next to the W that said "but the Vikings had a bad defense."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's never good when you have to make things up to support your narrative.  Few, if anyone, believed Minn was an actual SB contender. In fact, they had the longest odds to actually winning the SB:

"Minnesota Vikings had long-shot odds to win the Super Bowl compared to other playoff teams, despite having a strong regular season (13–4 record)." This was primary due to their negative point differentiational, which was a byproduct of the NFL's #31 ranked defense.

Again, i find it humorous that you consider the quality of opponents to rationalize DJ's poor performances and why his backups played better than he did in 2023.  Yet,  you don't employ that same logic to explain DJ's better performances.  Consider the 2022 Vikings.  Do you know how many 300 yard passers the Vikings allowed in 2022? The answer is an NFL high, NINE.  They allowed well below average QBs to throw for 300+ yards against them, including Mac Jones, Mike White and Daniel Jones.  That defense was terrible. 

DJs and the Giants trajectory post 2022 was easy to forecast, for those of us who choose not to view the 2022 season/Vikings game in a vacuum.

Quote from: todge on October 30, 2024, 06:01:08 PMSo you believe QBs win games? And that the other 21 players, coaches and officials don't affect Ws and Ls? In games 2, 3 and 4 this year, Jones played very well leading his own coach to say he "was locked in". Yet the  Giants went 1 and 2. Daboll again stated in his post game presser that "it wasn't Daniel's fault.

Of course you're going to disagree - but a QB is only as good as his supporting cast. This isn't tennis.

First off, you have quoted the locked in comment to death now, it's coach speak and you know it.

Second off, QBs absolutely win games. But nice job putting inaccurate words in my mouth. I never said other players don't matter. On the same token, do you not consider QB the most important position in football? You think all 22 are equal?

Interesting how you quote Daboll when it convenient for your agenda, yet when you inaccurately blamed the OL for the Watt play, and I shared Dabolls quote stating DJ didn't shift the TE for the chip, you went MIA. If you are going to quote me with the tone you often choose to do, at least be consistent.

Let me guess, you're gonna give me the George Young quote for the 137th time?

Quote from: MrGap92 on October 30, 2024, 05:17:15 PMI don't want to change your mind, not what I am trying do

But genuine question, how can we judge a QB guru, if he has not gotten anything to work with?

If you put lipstick on a pig, its still a pig. Shouldn't they give him a piece of clay that is more moldable or of higher quality before canning him?

QB Gurus arent going to make anyone good, the ability and talent still has top be there for them to "unlock" it, or at the very least to some extent. no?

That part.

Quote from: T200 on October 30, 2024, 07:25:40 PMThat part.

And I would argue Daboll has done it with Jones.  He's gotten as much out of that guy as possible. 

Quote from: Gmo11 on October 30, 2024, 07:32:11 PMAnd I would argue Daboll has done it with Jones.  He's gotten as much out of that guy as possible. 

He definitely has... but they only mention it when they think it bolsters their argument.

The ironic thing is that most of his supporters want Daboll gone. 

Make it make sense. 

Quote from: MrGap92 on October 30, 2024, 05:17:15 PMI don't want to change your mind, not what I am trying do

But genuine question, how can we judge a QB guru, if he has not gotten anything to work with?

If you put lipstick on a pig, its still a pig. Shouldn't they give him a piece of clay that is more moldable or of higher quality before canning him?

QB Gurus arent going to make anyone good, the ability and talent still has top be there for them to "unlock" it, or at the very least to some extent. no?

A fair question and my reply is that Josh Allen was supposedly inaccurate and somewhat of a risk coming from a smaller school. Daboll was credited with turning him into the QB he has become. I have seen zero improvement in Jones since Daboll has coached him and for someone getting props as some kind of QB whisperer I expected better. OK, maybe Jones isn't talented enough to become  top 5 QB, but he should have improved at least a little under Daboll.
Wasn't that supposed to be one of the perks when they hired him?

Quote from: ozzie on October 30, 2024, 10:23:49 PMA fair question and my reply is that Josh Allen was supposedly inaccurate and somewhat of a risk coming from a smaller school. Daboll was credited with turning him into the QB he has become. I have seen zero improvement in Jones since Daboll has coached him and for someone getting props as some kind of QB whisperer I expected better. OK, maybe Jones isn't talented enough to become  top 5 QB, but he should have improved at least a little under Daboll.
Wasn't that supposed to be one of the perks when they hired him?

I would disagree with that.  Jones has looked as good as he has ever looked in the 2 years with Daboll.  I think we're forgetting how bad he was before Daboll showed up because they were busy making all the excuses imaginable to defend his horrific play.  Make no mistake, Jones is terrible this year, but it's still not as bad as what he was. 

Quote from: ozzie on October 30, 2024, 10:23:49 PMA fair question and my reply is that Josh Allen was supposedly inaccurate and somewhat of a risk coming from a smaller school. Daboll was credited with turning him into the QB he has become. I have seen zero improvement in Jones since Daboll has coached him and for someone getting props as some kind of QB whisperer I expected better. OK, maybe Jones isn't talented enough to become  top 5 QB, but he should have improved at least a little under Daboll.
Wasn't that supposed to be one of the perks when they hired him?

It's unfortunate that, as I mentioned in another post, folks want to highlight the 2022 season as evidence to say that Jones is capable. So if he's given credit for a successful season, shouldn't that be primarily attributed to Daboll? I mean, he had to devise a barebones offense to limit Jones's mistakes and increase his efficiency.

What I see is that folks are starting to see the limitations of a dink-and-dunk offense but they blame Daboll instead of realizing Jones is the limiting factor in the offense.

It's like having a sports car with a 50 MPH governor on it. There's so much more that this offense could do without the restrictive QB.

Quote from: ozzie on October 30, 2024, 10:23:49 PMA fair question and my reply is that Josh Allen was supposedly inaccurate and somewhat of a risk coming from a smaller school. Daboll was credited with turning him into the QB he has become. I have seen zero improvement in Jones since Daboll has coached him and for someone getting props as some kind of QB whisperer I expected better. OK, maybe Jones isn't talented enough to become  top 5 QB, but he should have improved at least a little under Daboll.
Wasn't that supposed to be one of the perks when they hired him?

If you remember Josh ALlen was a diamond in the rough sort of draft pick. Daniel Jones had Cutcliffe and was supposed to be NFL ready.

@ Todge so am I to understand you believe Daniel Jones to be an actual good NFL QB?

You never answered this question.

No one is disagreeing that the other plyers and their contributions do not matter; but it just seems odd that for over 6 years now we have seen a lot of different players and coaching staffs and all have been gone now. 

Quote from: ozzie on October 30, 2024, 10:23:49 PMA fair question and my reply is that Josh Allen was supposedly inaccurate and somewhat of a risk coming from a smaller school. Daboll was credited with turning him into the QB he has become. I have seen zero improvement in Jones since Daboll has coached him and for someone getting props as some kind of QB whisperer I expected better. OK, maybe Jones isn't talented enough to become  top 5 QB, but he should have improved at least a little under Daboll.
Wasn't that supposed to be one of the perks when they hired him?

You can fix mechanical issues, but Jones' main issue is mental. He doesn't process quickly enough and it limits what your offense can do. You can't teach a guy to think faster.