Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 31, 2024, 11:41:59 AMTim,

I have to strongly disagree with your assertions here.  The reality is fans love to site the Texan's turnaround or the Commanders turnaround and try and claim it was all because of the QB drafted. 

Yea you can count me as one of those! I will even do you one better and, say the NE Patriots drafting Drew Bledsoe in 93 was the reason for their turnaround and subsequent dynasty. Even Kraft  said as much after one of their SBs where Tom Brady was the QB!

Quote from: Fletch on October 31, 2024, 12:07:51 PMYea you can count me as one of those! I will even do you one better and, say the NE Patriots drafting Drew Bledsoe in 93 was the reason for their turnaround and subsequent dynasty. Even Kraft  said as much after one of their SBs where Tom Brady was the QB!

@T200 

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 31, 2024, 12:09:19 PM@T200 

But seriously it is not "all" because of the QB but, it is a big part of it. So you are saying it is just coincidence then that a team like the Washington Generals were terrible for ; I don not know how many years now just became good. Like they would have had the same or similar success with Sam Howll but if they just went with their new roster and coaches? Ditto for Houston?

QBs play a big role in most rebuilds ; and there is a good reason for that; it is the most important position!

New England in the 90s ; the Lions wi their Jared Goff trade ; new coach and a ton of pics are another example.

Is it just wrong to take that out of context however, and pretend that maybe a new coach and gm ; and oline will make Jones anything more than a serviceable back up QB.

Quote from: jgrangers2 on October 31, 2024, 11:16:20 AMThe thing is that rookie contracts being four years (plus a fifth year option for first rounders) has changed how teams have to deal with the position. It's really hard to let guys sit for 3 or 4 years like the 49ers did with Young or the Packers did with Rodgers. You can't really just store a QB for when you need him when they will need a second contract so quickly and you have to make a decision on that within a three year timeframe.

Good point, but for many QB's, one season on the bench could be worth it. The Giants could've drafted a QB when it became apparent they needed to rebuild and traded Manning. Instead, they kept Manning to the very end of his career, were forced to draft his replacement the year they did and got nothing in return. Mara thought they could win with the team they had and drafted Shepard, Engram and Barkley, forcing them to delay the rebuild and finally draft a QB the year there were only 2 with big question marks.

Quote from: todge on October 31, 2024, 11:22:31 AMA QBs primary job is to run the offense. It's not to accumulate fantasy football stats


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Wrong. This isn't high school football. The QBs primary job is to manage the offense toward winning games. He has to be the alpha on the field in terms of leadership. He has to know everyone's job better than they do. And he has to anticipate, process, and make decisions at near super-human levels.

Daniel Jones is sub-par in these traits. He isn't a leader on the field. He's along for the ride more than anything. This is a big part of the reason why the Giants are ranked 31st in scoring and have been a bottom-3 scoring offense in 2/3 of Daniel Jones' seasons. It's humiliating. And it's more humiliating that the organization doesn't have enough pride to say that this isn't good enough.

Quote from: todge on October 31, 2024, 11:22:31 AMA QBs primary job is to run the offense. It's not to accumulate fantasy football stats


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You do know, that running an offense typically includes scoring points right?

When was the last time he threw a TD at Metlife?

Touchdowns aren't fantasy stats, you still kinda need them to win games.

Quote from: todge on October 31, 2024, 11:24:32 AMHalf the time for what? Jones has proven you can with him as evidenced by a 2022 road playoff victory.


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The only thing Jones proved in 2022 is that he can be an average QB when everything bounces his way. He was only good enough in 2022 to get dog walked by a good Eagles defense. That isn't proof of ability to win anything, unless your goal is to just back into the playoffs on a down year in the division and get dominated by legitimately good teams.

Quote from: MrGap92 on October 31, 2024, 11:30:44 AMOh, the irony

Quote from: Giant Jim on October 31, 2024, 12:14:32 PMGood point, but for many QB's, one season on the bench could be worth it. The Giants could've drafted a QB when it became apparent they needed to rebuild and traded Manning. Instead, they kept Manning to the very end of his career, were forced to draft his replacement the year they did and got nothing in return. Mara thought they could win with the team they had and drafted Shepard, Engram and Barkley, forcing them to delay the rebuild and finally draft a QB the year there were only 2 with big question marks.

When would have been a good time to do that? In 2015 Manning was a pro bowl player. His coaches have been Ben Mcadoo and Pat Shurmur. you really got what you wanted if your answer is 2018 was the year they rebuilt.

I guess I agree in a way that they should have drafted a QB -- both times -- when Mcadoo became the coach and SHurmur. You arguably could say that is what they did with Shurmur.

But just saying "delay the rebuild" does not mean much to me. Who's the coach and who's the QB?

Mcadoo and whoever no
Shurmur and Daniel Jones no.

But if you have perrenial losers like Shurmur and mcadoo saying it time to bench Eli a decision needs to be made.

Strangely I think both of them got more leeway than Daboll seems to have.

Quote from: Giant Jim on October 31, 2024, 12:14:32 PMGood point, but for many QB's, one season on the bench could be worth it. The Giants could've drafted a QB when it became apparent they needed to rebuild and traded Manning. Instead, they kept Manning to the very end of his career, were forced to draft his replacement the year they did and got nothing in return. Mara thought they could win with the team they had and drafted Shepard, Engram and Barkley, forcing them to delay the rebuild and finally draft a QB the year there were only 2 with big question marks.

The did draft QBs in 2013, 2017 and 2018.  They didn't draft them at the top of the draft which is what I think you mean.  And I guess when you have an ironman QB you think about trying to build a team around him again.  They just never got the line in order enough to make any of it work. 

Quote from: T200 on October 31, 2024, 09:44:22 AMPerhaps I did. In your first post, I thought you were talking about coaching staff stability. It appears you're talking about QB stability.

I thought he was talking about stability in the coaching staff once the QB was selected, i.e., future ongoing stability.  Not past stability.  The ideal would be the QB being coached from the start by a quality HC and OC who stay in those positions as he develops.  As opposed to the HC and OC being changed every year or two.

But I could be wrong.

Quote from: Fletch on October 31, 2024, 12:32:31 PMWhen would have been a good time to do that? In 2015 Manning was a pro bowl player. His coaches have been Ben Mcadoo and Pat Shurmur. you really got what you wanted if your answer is 2018 was the year they rebuilt.

I guess I agree in a way that they should have drafted a QB -- both times -- when Mcadoo became the coach and SHurmur. You arguably could say that is what they did with Shurmur.

But just saying "delay the rebuild" does not mean much to me. Who's the coach and who's the QB?

Mcadoo and whoever no
Shurmur and Daniel Jones no.

But if you have perrenial losers like Shurmur and mcadoo saying it time to bench Eli a decision needs to be made.

Strangely I think both of them got more leeway than Daboll seems to have.

Manning made the pro bowl with McAdoo's short pass offense. He improved his completion % and lowered his interceptions by throwing shorter passes. He also padded his stats by completing passes in the middle of the field when losing and the side lines the few times when they needed to kill the clock. Great stats for Fantasy Football and the Pro Bowl, but only good enough for about 6 wins.

Just like in the 60's, the last super bowl team lost many players and the team tried to patch up here and there instead of tearing down and building a foundation. It didn't help that so many draft picks were busts or played positions that are usually filled last.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 31, 2024, 01:42:50 PMThe did draft QBs in 2013, 2017 and 2018.  They didn't draft them at the top of the draft which is what I think you mean.  And I guess when you have an ironman QB you think about trying to build a team around him again.  They just never got the line in order enough to make any of it work. 

They got rid of the QB's they drafted before giving them a chance. As far as an Iron Man QB goes, they all get old. Sometimes it's better to get rid of a high salaried top player when they pass 35 and lose a couple good years to help the cap allow keeping younger players at different positions while adding to the core to start the rebuild.

Quote from: Giant Jim on October 31, 2024, 02:47:14 PMManning made the pro bowl with McAdoo's short pass offense. He improved his completion % and lowered his interceptions by throwing shorter passes. He also padded his stats by completing passes in the middle of the field when losing and the side lines the few times when they needed to kill the clock. Great stats for Fantasy Football and the Pro Bowl, but only good enough for about 6 wins.

Just like in the 60's, the last super bowl team lost many players and the team tried to patch up here and there instead of tearing down and building a foundation. It didn't help that so many draft picks were busts or played positions that are usually filled last.

1. Mcadoo was not the coach
2. Eli did not pad stats in garbage time or whatever because they were losing a bunch of games .

Giants lost 6 games in which they held leads or were tied within the final 2 minutes. They held double digit leads in the 4th QTR in 2 of them.

Quote from: Giant Jim on October 31, 2024, 02:52:37 PMThey got rid of the QB's they drafted before giving them a chance. As far as an Iron Man QB goes, they all get old. Sometimes it's better to get rid of a high salaried top player when they pass 35 and lose a couple good years to help the cap allow keeping younger players at different positions while adding to the core to start the rebuild.

Those QBs were not any good.