Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 05, 2024, 01:52:23 PMDo you think he and Schoen are going to have a hard time convincing Mara it's time to cut him loose?  If so then it's worse than I thought.

Personally, I do not.

This is my line of thinking: Schoen declined the 5th year option as soon as he walked in the door. They won a playoff game and Mara and Schoen compromised on a contract. Last year was a disaster, Daboll being a major contributor by not having the team ready, and of course, Jones getting injured. Mara already knew Schoen wanted a new QB and tried to trade up. Mara made his wishes to keep Barkley known and Schoen still let him walk. To me, THAT was the test to see what Mara's reaction/response would be. Schoen is more confident to make the hard decisions despite what Mara wants. They (Schoen and Daboll) will continue to play Jones without regard to the injury clause. They need to be in a position to draft THEIR QB while demonstrating to Mara that even with the upgraded offensive line and the #1 WR, Jones still can't get them where they want to go.

Quote from: T200 on November 05, 2024, 01:58:48 PMThey (Schoen and Daboll) will continue to play Jones without regard to the injury clause. They need to be in a position to draft THEIR QB while demonstrating to Mara that even with the upgraded offensive line and the #1 WR, Jones still can't get them where they want to go.

This is the part that concerns me.  When even I, who has been a big supporter of Jones, some might even say apologist, for Jones has come to the point of accepting that they need to move on, why should Schoen/Daboll need to risk killing the 2025 CAP by playing him to convince Mara?  I'd rather have that CAP available for the possibility that there is no franchise-potential QB in the draft and they need to sign someone like Darnold.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 05, 2024, 02:32:35 PMThis is the part that concerns me.  When even I, who has been a big supporter of Jones, some might even say apologist, for Jones has come to the point of accepting that they need to move on, why should Schoen/Daboll need to risk killing the 2025 CAP by playing him to convince Mara?  I'd rather have that CAP available for the possibility that there is no franchise-potential QB in the draft and they need to sign someone like Darnold.

If my above speculation is correct, I'd modify it a little to add this wrinkle: should the Giants lose to Carolina, I think Schoen and Daboll will talk to Mara and explain to him that very scenario you mentioned.

"John, you've seen through 9 games that this is working. We need to pivot and move on and focus on how to improve the roster for next season. We don't have a problem continuing to play Daniel, but should he get hurt, that's even more money attributed to him that we cannot use to build a contender. We're going to sit him for the remainder of the season."

Quote from: T200 on November 05, 2024, 10:39:48 AMMore to the point, he wants Mara to see without a doubt that Jones is not the answer at QB.

Mara doesn't want to see it.

Quote from: y_so_blu on November 06, 2024, 05:09:40 AMMara doesn't want to see it.

I'm sure. It's going to come down to Schoen holding his ground and doing what's best for the team, not what Mara wants, aside from winning a championship, of course.

Quote from: T200 on November 05, 2024, 01:58:48 PMPersonally, I do not.

This is my line of thinking: Schoen declined the 5th year option as soon as he walked in the door. They won a playoff game and Mara and Schoen compromised on a contract. Last year was a disaster, Daboll being a major contributor by not having the team ready, and of course, Jones getting injured. Mara already knew Schoen wanted a new QB and tried to trade up. Mara made his wishes to keep Barkley known and Schoen still let him walk. To me, THAT was the test to see what Mara's reaction/response would be. Schoen is more confident to make the hard decisions despite what Mara wants. They (Schoen and Daboll) will continue to play Jones without regard to the injury clause. They need to be in a position to draft THEIR QB while demonstrating to Mara that even with the upgraded offensive line and the #1 WR, Jones still can't get them where they want to go.

Upgraded offensive line???

It was a single point failure offensive line, in spite of the merits of the personnel and coach they brought in. I don't throw rocks at any of them, mind you, but it was a single point failure at best, and fools' gold / con job at its worst. That one player, albeit their best offensive lineman, and as we're now seeing the best player on their offense, period, Thomas going down brought the house down like dominoes and the team hasn't recovered since. It is nearly as bad as L.T. blowing out his Achilles tendon in 1992 against Green Bay when the Giants were 5-4. They finished the year 6-10 and we all know what happened in that story.

The QB story has already been written and the only thing left to discuss is where Jones will be playing next season. I sincerely hope it will be Carolina so he can return to his home state and be closer to family and friends there.

What we need to discuss at length is whether Schoen will renegotiate Thomas' contract, now that he's has a "salvage title" next to his name, and whether Schoen will use his first round pick to acquire the best Left Offensive Tackle in the nation in the 2025 draft. It is time, unfortunately for Thomas, to go this route since he is damaged goods now. Schoen should just take advantage and load up on the line and fix it, once and for all, and get the train back on its tracks heading into 2025.

One or two plays may have cost the Giants games this season, but it took only one (1) solitary play to cost them the entire season: the play where Andrew Thomas broke his Lisfranc and other supporting bones and ligaments.

Peace!

Quote from: kartanoman on November 06, 2024, 06:39:06 PMUpgraded offensive line???

It was a single point failure offensive line, in spite of the merits of the personnel and coach they brought in. I don't throw rocks at any of them, mind you, but it was a single point failure at best, and fools' gold / con job at its worst. That one player, albeit their best offensive lineman, and as we're now seeing the best player on their offense, period, Thomas going down brought the house down like dominoes and the team hasn't recovered since. It is nearly as bad as L.T. blowing out his Achilles tendon in 1992 against Green Bay when the Giants were 5-4. They finished the year 6-10 and we all know what happened in that story.

The QB story has already been written and the only thing left to discuss is where Jones will be playing next season. I sincerely hope it will be Carolina so he can return to his home state and be closer to family and friends there.

What we need to discuss at length is whether Schoen will renegotiate Thomas' contract, now that he's has a "salvage title" next to his name, and whether Schoen will use his first round pick to acquire the best Left Offensive Tackle in the nation in the 2025 draft. It is time, unfortunately for Thomas, to go this route since he is damaged goods now. Schoen should just take advantage and load up on the line and fix it, once and for all, and get the train back on its tracks heading into 2025.

One or two plays may have cost the Giants games this season, but it took only one (1) solitary play to cost them the entire season: the play where Andrew Thomas broke his Lisfranc and other supporting bones and ligaments.

Peace!

Yeah, upgraded.

Remember the 80s classic "16 Candles" where Jake went to Samantha's house looking for her but instead found Long Duck Dong. He asked, "Where's Sam?" and LDD said, "She's getting married." "Married?!?", Jake responded. "Yeah, married."

When you asked "Upgraded offensive line???", that's what I thought of.

"Yeah, upgraded!" 

Bobby Johnson wasn't getting it done. Enter Carmen Bricillo and two of his guys from LV to solidify the right side of the line. Add Runyan Jr to the left and the upgrade was complete. Yes, we want to have depth but no one could have foreseen the line playing like five Neals after the Thomas injury. It definitely was a blow to their chemistry but it shouldn't have resulted in catastrophic play. However, I do think they will bounce back. I don't know what the answer is at LT but I expect them to do better.

Quote from: T200 on November 07, 2024, 08:06:13 AMYes, we want to have depth but no one could have foreseen the line playing like five Neals after the Thomas injury. It definitely was a blow to their chemistry but it shouldn't have resulted in catastrophic play. However, I do think they will bounce back. I don't know what the answer is at LT but I expect them to do better.

Tim: True, but you have to consider how much they needed to change when Thomas went down.

He was the one guy for whom the individual game plan consisted of... "Andrew, you'll be responsible for [insert name of opponent's right-side pass-rusher here] and you will never have any help under any circumstances. For the rest of the guys, the responsibilities change (in at least a minor way) depending on the individual strengths and weaknesses of the opponent.

In other words, after he went down, the amount of work needed to prepare each week increased by about 25 percent.  The complexity of the game-plan also increased proportionately. The added amount of preparation simply disrupted things which (up until that time) were fairly well-settled.

Bob

Quote from: T200 on November 07, 2024, 08:06:13 AMYeah, upgraded.

Remember the 80s classic "16 Candles" where Jake went to Samantha's house looking for her but instead found Long Duck Dong. He asked, "Where's Sam?" and LDD said, "She's getting married." "Married?!?", Jake responded. "Yeah, married."

When you asked "Upgraded offensive line???", that's what I thought of.

"Yeah, upgraded!" 

Bobby Johnson wasn't getting it done. Enter Carmen Bricillo and two of his guys from LV to solidify the right side of the line. Add Runyan Jr to the left and the upgrade was complete. Yes, we want to have depth but no one could have foreseen the line playing like five Neals after the Thomas injury. It definitely was a blow to their chemistry but it shouldn't have resulted in catastrophic play. However, I do think they will bounce back. I don't know what the answer is at LT but I expect them to do better.

How do you figure BJs success in Washington. Feliciano took a shot at the Giants. So did Winky Dink. Does Daboll not devote enough time in practice, is it better talent, or Daniels avoiding pressure who makes the Oline look good?

Quote from: Bob In PA on November 07, 2024, 09:01:13 AMTim: True, but you have to consider how much they needed to change when Thomas went down.

He was the one guy for whom the individual game plan consisted of... "Andrew, you'll be responsible for [insert name of opponent's right-side pass-rusher here] and you will never have any help under any circumstances. For the rest of the guys, the responsibilities change (in at least a minor way) depending on the individual strengths and weaknesses of the opponent.

In other words, after he went down, the amount of work needed to prepare each week increased by about 25 percent.  The complexity of the game-plan also increased proportionately. The added amount of preparation simply disrupted things which (up until that time) were fairly well-settled.

Bob

Bob,

It definitely isn't lost on me. My post was more about Schoen and Daboll actually upgrading the line this past offseason. Sure, it wasn't a completed project but the improvement from last year to this year was very noticeable.

The injury dynamic is always a factor; we just never know which player/position will get bit. With a 53-man roster and 22 starters, most positions have at least one backup. Average tackles are a rare commodity and having one on the bench behind a stalwart like Thomas tough to keep in the sense that he'll rarely get to play and another team may poach him.

Still, I'm hopeful that Bricillo will figure out something.

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 07, 2024, 09:15:09 AMHow do you figure BJs success in Washington. Feliciano took a shot at the Giants. So did Winky Dink. Does Daboll not devote enough time in practice, is it better talent, or Daniels avoiding pressure who makes the Oline look good?

Clearly BJ can't take all of the blame, so some of it probably falls on Daboll. Still hard to say because we haven't heard any reports of him being a micromanager. Considering he and Bobby were good friends, I don't see Daboll putting his spoon in Bobby's pot.

Wink is a non-factor. The defense started getting turnovers after Daboll insisted Wink change up his coverage.

As with other issues, there are multiple factors that play a role in a unit's success/failure. So, my final answer is, D: All Of The Above.

I think this team has regressed in many facets of the game. First of all the offensive line has improved but there is still a lack of depth in that area. The receiving has gotten better with Nabers but that is about it I still think Robinson is too small and is like the 4th option, Slayton is who he is. TE has potential to be really good but it's an under utilized part of the offense in Daboll system. Running back position with Tracey looks very capable. The topic that everyone discusses is QB. I might be the only one who thinks Jones is not bad. I believe that the offense they are trying to put around him doesn't fit him. I honestly think he is a gun slinger there is little bit of sloppiness that comes with that type of play. With that said I believe he has been told to clean up his game to the point where it is detrimental to his style of play.
Defensively only area of improvement I see is the defensive line and the sacks dept. stopping the run has regressed monumentally. Linebackers they have regressed too.  Secondary is not good they have been getting worse and worse since 2022. The Giants have managed to lose good secondary players every year. Believe it or not secondary was a strength for the Giants in 2022 and probably main reason for the playoffs.

Coaching to me is the biggest weakness of the Giants. There is instability in the coaching department. The turnover is to high. They went from Kafka to Daboll calling plays. New DC, new OL coach. That to me is instability. Personally I think Daboll is toxic he isn't a good coach based just on his record. This team has way to much turnover in staff that causes learning curves for everyone.

Shoen to me hasn't been very good to many bad draft picks. Losing quality players in free agency. He hasn't been prioritizing retention in the secondary. I think Daboll is having to much say in the decision making process. Instead of coaching what he has I believe he is thinking what he needs and what he wants. Shoen to me is trying to improve one part while basically destroying another.
To me the biggest disappointment has been the coaching. Bringing in a new QB with a bad coaching is a disaster. We would be setting that new QB for failure. I would suggest getting a new coach and start the new QB with a fresh outlook.

Quote from: T200 on November 07, 2024, 08:06:13 AMYeah, upgraded.

Remember the 80s classic "16 Candles" where Jake went to Samantha's house looking for her but instead found Long Duck Dong. He asked, "Where's Sam?" and LDD said, "She's getting married." "Married?!?", Jake responded. "Yah, married."

When you asked "Upgraded offensive line???", that's what I thought of.

"Yeah, upgraded!" 

Bobby Johnson wasn't getting it done. Enter Carmen Bricillo and two of his guys from LV to solidify the right side of the line. Add Runyan Jr to the left and the upgrade was complete. Yes, we want to have depth but no one could have foreseen the line playing like five Neals after the Thomas injury. It definitely was a blow to their chemistry but it shouldn't have resulted in catastrophic play. However, I do think they will bounce back. I don't know what the answer is at LT but I expect them to do better.

"Married?"

"You have hearing problem? Yes, married!"

I remember the Brat Pack very well! That all coincides with my teen years and am guilty as charged for sneaking a peak of that, and other like movies from the 80s, on the boob tube before my wife scolds me (NOTE: same age and from that era and STILL wears the big 80s hair and outfits to keep my juices flowing ... a fox on her mid 50s, no doubt!).

I guess that makes sense by my posing the question but didn't quite have the Longster Dongster in mind (NOTE: now I have to go watch that damned movie this weekend, thank you very much!  ).

The O-Line was always a risk going into the season and it was the durability factor which ultimately would determine their fate. Thomas can dominate but he's also a major problem, especially now, because this latest injury is not a slam-dunk recovery and back at it brand, spanking new. It could take him as much as a year before he completely recovers and, because he is a big man putting 300+ pounds force on that arch, the Lisfranc has to be able to accommodate not only his weight but also the force being transferred down his leg, to his tibia/fibula, ankle and to his Lisfranc and all of the bones and ligaments attached to it that branch out to his extremities. What is more concerning is that this is not the only injury he has incurred to this foot. Also, his other foot has been surgically repaired and his knee has been surgically repaired as well. That's a lot of work done in four and a half seasons of playing. To compare, I've had five surgeries on my left Achilles which should have been just one; however, complications required an additional four. I was able to run eight miles every morning with no issue up until I developed a bad case of Achilles Tendonosis in my mid 40s. After the five surgeries, I was unable to run like I used to because the Achilles tore on me about two weeks after the first surgery; what a mess that was! The rest is a long, painful story but am fortunate to have made it through without amputation which, at one point, was becoming an option. But running again was no longer an option for me. It impacted my gait to a large degree to where my knee started causing me problems and, some seven years later, I had total knee arthroplasty on the same leg. To this day, I still have pain in the ligaments around the knee and my back and hip are hurting more and more. An X-Ray on my hip revealed a degenerative hip socket and that would be the next joint to be replaced. I'm sick of it and will only do it if I am limited to the point I need a wheelchair or maybe just a walking stick. I'm in my mid-50s right now. Andrew Thomas will have the same issues as I do by the time he turns 40. It's too bad for him but at least he has gotten his payday for all his troubles. All I have are my troubles and still have to work another ten or so years before I can call it a career. But I can't complain and am blessed to have good medical insurance which took care of nearly all of the payments for these surgeries.

But, back to the Giants' O-Line, Thomas can no longer be counted on as the cornerstone of the Giants line anymore. That is why I believe the team needs to draft the best left tackle prospect coming out of the draft in April and lock down the line for the next decade. But don't stop there and add one or two more prospects as well who can provide them depth yet challenge for a starting role.

It really is time for them to load up on genuine talent and build solid depth to take the pressure off when a starter goes down. I believe you can build around JMS and keep some of the players signed from this season and get strong through the draft.

That's all there is to it and we don't have to bother the Dongster as he buries himself in the cleavage of his date while they dance and do what crazy teens do in the 80s!

"Yah, married!"

Indeed!

Peace!

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 04, 2024, 11:12:57 AMSometimes, it's a penalty in a crucial situation that negates a TD or kills a drive, a dropped pass, or it's a critical turnover. It happened again yesterday. It's getting to the point where I'm just expecting it to happen. Good teams are making these plays and not shooting themselves in the foot.

Just one example. Last night in the third quarter, Sam Darnold threw a perfect pass to Jefferson who made a great catch in the basket for about 40 yards, and I was thinking to myself that if it was the Giants, that play has a 10% chance. Why? Well either the Receiver gets pushed to the sideline and can't make the catch, or the pass was short and the receiver had to hold up, or the Defender breaks up the pass, or the receiver drops it. Or, the Official calls a ticky-tack penalty negating a TD.

What's the problem? Coaching and preparation? Lack of focus? Talent? A combination of all of it? 3 games could have gone the other way, and 2-7 becomes 5-4.

I know, you are what your record says you are.

That is what has made this season so frustrating. The improvement is there. The signs are there. The Giants just can't get out of their own way. When you get in these tight games, it is easy to look at the officials, but it is a tight game because the receiver lost track of the sideline, or another KICKER gets hurt during the game!  So I'll give the officials some slack. Just don't get me started on how they can call every little tug of a shoulderpad and brush of a facemask in one contest while another crew mysteriously doesn't see anything in another.

Maybe we will find a little joy this Sunday, even if it is only listening to Germans sing a few John Denver songs.

I feel your pain Ed.