Big Blue Huddle

Talkin' Giants

@TalkinGiants
Giants Bye Week Poll Results (Twitter/IG)

Should Joe Schoen be Fired?
Yes: 6,347 Votes 30.9%
No: 14,170 Votes 69.1%

Should Brian Daboll be Fired?
Yes: 6,368 Votes 28.7%
No: 15,816 Votes 71.3%

Should Daniel Jones be Benched?
Yes: 21,297 Votes 88.6%
No: 2,733 Votes 11.4%
8:30 AM · Nov 12, 2024
·
2,390
 Views

https://x.com/TalkinGiants/status/1856328741602934795


When I see results like this, I can't help but think of my speculation that Schoen and Daboll keep starting Daniel Jones because he becomes the focus of almost all the criticism and gives them cover.

Objectively, a head coach who won only 6 out of 17 games last season and is on pace to win only 3 or 4 out of 17 games this season wouldn't normally get the high level (at least, I think it's quite high) of support from the fanbase.  Even Schoen, in light of only 1 good draft out of three and 2 consecutive losing seasons, is enjoying a rather impressive level of fan support.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 12, 2024, 08:46:08 AMTalkin' Giants

@TalkinGiants
Giants Bye Week Poll Results (Twitter/IG)

Should Joe Schoen be Fired?
Yes: 6,347 Votes 30.9%
No: 14,170 Votes 69.1%

Should Brian Daboll be Fired?
Yes: 6,368 Votes 28.7%
No: 15,816 Votes 71.3%

Should Daniel Jones be Benched?
Yes: 21,297 Votes 88.6%
No: 2,733 Votes 11.4%
8:30 AM · Nov 12, 2024
·
2,390
 Views

https://x.com/TalkinGiants/status/1856328741602934795


When I see results like this, I can't help but think of my speculation that Schoen and Daboll keep starting Daniel Jones because he becomes the focus of almost all the criticism and gives them cover.

Objectively, a head coach who won only 6 out of 17 games last season and is on pace to win only 3 or 4 out of 17 games this season wouldn't normally get the high level (at least, I think it's quite high) of support from the fanbase.  Even Schoen, in light of only 1 good draft out of three and 2 consecutive losing seasons, is enjoying a rather impressive level of fan support.

You're entitled to interpret the results as you see them. I think that view sells the fan base short and portrays them (us) as not being able to look past the surface of what is presented to us. Another thing is that it purports a situation where only two choices exist: Jones is the problem or Schoen/Daboll are the problem.

Maybe, just maybe, the fans view all of them as contributing to the problem but JONES is the BIGGEST problem, as does your friend Bobby Skinner.

I will also add that, of the three people mentioned, Jones is the easiest to replace and expect an upgrade. Why? We've seen this show for six seasons. It isn't likely to change dramatically for the better. QBs come out of college every year; GMs and HCs aren't readily available. Changing a GM and/or HC has far-reaching organizational effects, both good and bad. Changing a QB affects the team on the field, not the front office or coaching staff.

I view the results as I have been posting; Schoen and Daboll deserve a shot at getting their own QB. Yes, they've had opportunities but they weren't looking for just any QB to replace Jones. It has to be the right one. Then, in my eyes, I will hold them 100% accountable. Until then, the ghost of Gettleman and Meddling Mara will continue to loom over this organization.

Quote from: T200 on November 12, 2024, 08:56:01 AMYou're entitled to interpret the results as you see them. I think that view sells the fan base short and portrays them (us) as not being able to look past the surface of what is presented to us. Another thing is that it purports a situation where only two choices exist: Jones is the problem or Schoen/Daboll are the problem.

Maybe, just maybe, the fans view all of them as contributing to the problem but JONES is the BIGGEST problem, as does your friend Bobby Skinner.

I will also add that, of the three people mentioned, Jones is the easiest to replace and expect an upgrade. Why? We've seen this show for six seasons. It isn't likely to change dramatically for the better. QBs come out of college every year; GMs and HCs aren't readily available. Changing a GM and/or HC has far-reaching organizational effects, both good and bad. Changing a QB affects the team on the field, not the front office or coaching staff.

I view the results as I have been posting; Schoen and Daboll deserve a shot at getting their own QB. Yes, they've had opportunities but they weren't looking for just any QB to replace Jones. It has to be the right one. Then, in my eyes, I will hold them 100% accountable. Until then, the ghost of Gettleman and Meddling Mara will continue to loom over this organization.

Tim,

While Kurt Warner has the fans out with torches and pitchforks for Daniel Jones, I am hearing commentators starting to question the decisions of Schoen and Daboll.   After all, Daniel Jones didn't miss the 43 yard gimmie FG, he didn't fumble the ball to lose the game in OT, he didn't allow Hubbard to set a season-high record (by nearly 40 yards) with 153 rushing yards (at 5.5 yards per carry).

You keep mentioning Bobby Skinner, I consider him a very knowledgeable friend.  I respect his opinions, but I don't always agree with him.  I think you are also overselling the "DJ is the main culprit comment" for more than what Bobby intended.   The bigger point is Bobby is no fan of DJ, and even he recognizes the other serious issues with the team.

Man, why is EVERYONE who thinks Jones is the biggest problem (but not the only one) ALWAYS wrong

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 12, 2024, 09:02:11 AMTim,

While Kurt Warner has the fans out with torches and pitchforks for Daniel Jones, I am hearing commentators starting to question the decisions of Schoen and Daboll.   After all, Daniel Jones didn't miss the 43 yard gimmie FG, he didn't fumble the ball to lose the game in OT, he didn't allow Hubbard to set a season-high record (by nearly 40 yards) with 153 rushing yards (at 5.5 yards per carry).

You keep mentioning Bobby Skinner, I consider him a very knowledgeable friend.  I respect his opinions, but I don't always agree with him.  I think you are also overselling the "DJ is the main culprit comment" for more than what Bobby intended.   The bigger point is Bobby is no fan of DJ, and even he recognizes the other serious issues with the team.

Main culprit does not mean only culprit

The last two sections are saying the same thing, T2 and many other have been open about OTHER issues besides Jones as  well, yet everyone gets thrown into a box for claiming it is only Jones, which is a false accusation.

Makes no sense.

Quote from: MrGap92 on November 12, 2024, 09:03:34 AMMan, why is EVERYONE who thinks Jones is the biggest problem (but not the only one) ALWAYS wrong

that is a false framing.  The point is how much support a 2 consecutive terrible team management team is getting from fans.  It's highly unusual, as historically, with most fan bases being out of playoff contention before Halloween, it usually creates a demand for change.  Although I can't help but point out your efforts to try and make it all about DJ kind of proves my point rather than disputes it.

I don't buy this speculation that detracts from their overall job. What I think the continuation of running Jones out there shows that he's not good enough for the New York Giants and that was a problem.

Where I am happy to speculate is that perhaps this is a message to Mara which says something along the lines of 'you wanted us to keep Jones, we did and now this is how bad it is'.

I think there's support from the fanbase because of a few things:

1.    They lucked into the playoffs in year one. Barkley averaged 4.93 yards per carry through the first 8 games. They rode him like a horse. Over the second half of the season, he averaged 3.9 yards a carry. Quite the drop-off; I think teams clearly figured out the Giant's offence and dared Jones to beat them. Bar and large – the offence failed. However, toward the back end of the year, Barkley rounded back into form and ran for 58, 84 and 87 yards per game over the final 3 games. Jones was obviously a complimentary piece to that attack, but it's apparent the Giant's offensive success rested on Barkley's legs (or at least the threat of his legs).

2.    Last year was an aberration. When Jones went down, there was no back-up option. The Giants were in cap hell so they didn't have lots of space to pay for a decent back-up. The fact that they won games with Cutlets is a testament to coaching and for that Dabs get credit.

3.    There was an escape clause built into the Jones deal, which shows a good amount of foresight.

4.    They let Barkley walk – a contentious one and it's early doors but Tracey looks very decent. So again, a positive.

5.    Giants fans and top brass are fed-up with the constant churn of staff.


Is it perfect, no. But I think we need time to see how these Schoen drafts develop. The vast majority of the high picks have not had an instant impact but they also have not had enough time to pass a full and considered judgement. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 12, 2024, 09:02:11 AMTim,

While Kurt Warner has the fans out with torches and pitchforks for Daniel Jones, I am hearing commentators starting to question the decisions of Schoen and Daboll.   After all, Daniel Jones didn't miss the 43 yard gimmie FG, he didn't fumble the ball to lose the game in OT, he didn't allow Hubbard to set a season-high record (by nearly 40 yards) with 153 rushing yards (at 5.5 yards per carry).

You keep mentioning Bobby Skinner, I consider him a very knowledgeable friend.  I respect his opinions, but I don't always agree with him.  I think you are also overselling the "DJ is the main culprit comment" for more than what Bobby intended.   The bigger point is Bobby is no fan of DJ, and even he recognizes the other serious issues with the team.

Rich,

There is no Kurt Warner effect with regards to Jones. Fans have been calling to bench him before Warner said anything.

I think the point you are missing, and I've said it multiple times in multiple ways:

It is not a one or the other proposition: both are true. No one is ignoring the negative impacts of Schoen and Daboll. Please stop floating that out there as if it is fact. It isn't.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 12, 2024, 09:06:50 AMthat is a false framing.  The point is how much support a 2 consecutive terrible team management team is getting from fans.  It's highly unusual, as historically, with most fan bases being out of playoff contention before Halloween, it usually creates a demand for change.  Although I can't help but point out your efforts to try and make it all about DJ kind of proves my point rather than disputes it.

Thanks for making my point for me

I have been very open about Barnes and the issues he causes, needs all over the defense (especially DT and CB), RG, Swing Tackle

But you don't see that, you just attack people and make false claims like this. You just see DJ, stop reading and go for the jugular.

I am officially done with the DJ debates, we have all made our points. There is nothing else to add here.

You are one of over 20,000 that voted, at least 6000+ people, plus many here all agree with you, what more do you want? People have different opinion, they support it, you don't, great, that's life.

And please, people have rightly been down on Jones most of the year. They didn't need Warner's encouragement

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 12, 2024, 09:08:26 AMAnd please, people have rightly been down on Jones most of the year. They didn't need Warner's encouragement

True, but it certainly helped the NYG management focus attention on only DJ

Quote from: T200 on November 12, 2024, 09:08:04 AMRich,

There is no Kurt Warner effect with regards to Jones. Fans have been calling to bench him before Warner said anything.

I think the point you are missing, and I've said it multiple times in multiple ways:

It is not a one or the other proposition: both are true. No one is ignoring the negative impacts of Schoen and Daboll. Please stop floating that out there as if it is fact. It isn't.

Tim,

I understand the point you are trying to make.  However, the overwhelming support Schoen and Daboll enjoy in this poll despite leading teams to being out of contention before Halloween shows that fans are pretty much only blaming Daniel Jones.  I have been watching football for over 40 years, I have never seen such a unsuccessful duo enjoy such overwhelming support, especially without a Super Bowl trophy in their back pocket (or even a deep playoff run).

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 12, 2024, 09:12:20 AMTim,

I understand the point you are trying to make.  However, the overwhelming support Schoen and Daboll enjoy in this poll despite leading teams to being out of contention before Halloween shows that fans are pretty much only blaming Daniel Jones.  I have been watching football for over 40 years, I have never seen such a unsuccessful duo enjoy such overwhelming support, especially without a Super Bowl trophy in their back pocket (or even a deep playoff run).

Look, I get it. You're all in on Jones and want nothing more to do with Schoen and Daboll.

The numbers from the poll speak for themselves. You choose to see it differently, so be it.

Quote from: T200 on November 12, 2024, 09:20:24 AMLook, I get it. You're all in on Jones and want nothing more to do with Schoen and Daboll.

The numbers from the poll speak for themselves. You choose to see it differently, so be it.

I want all three gone, but if you want to mischaracterize my position, I can't stop you

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 12, 2024, 09:09:48 AMTrue, but it certainly helped the NYG management focus attention on only DJ

I mean, that's one opinion. Personally, I really don't think it made that much difference. The performances have spoken volumes.