Big Blue Huddle

I think a lot of this sentiment, as fans, is just being exhausted from the continuous turmoil/turnover at the top.  It's obviously not been helpful to keep this churn happening every few years and I, for one, would like to at least give these guys another year to see if some continuity may actually be helpful.  Lord knows we've tried the other tactic and it's failed miserably.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 12, 2024, 09:24:11 AMI mean, that's one opinion. Personally, I really don't think it made that much difference. The performances have spoken volumes.

Ed,

Do you think it's a bit unusual for a GM and HC (without a SB victory or deep playoff run) to enjoy nearly 80% support after leading teams that were out of playoff contention before Halloween for two consecutive years?

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 12, 2024, 09:22:35 AMI want all three gone, but if you want to mischaracterize my position, I can't stop you

I can only go by what you post. Not a negative word about Jones. You have been one of the most relentless and ardent Jones supporters from Day 1. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and it's not a knock on you. Just stating facts. But now that the writing is clearly on the wall that Jones is on the way out, your focus has been on Schoen and Daboll.

Yes, you want all three gone... but for different reasons. You feel Jones got a raw deal here and never had a chance to live up to what you thought/think he could be. You agree with Mara that the Giants ruined him and you feel bad for him.

You want Schoen and Daboll gone because you feel that they further ruined Jones.

I don't think I misrepresented you at all. Your posts over the years bear all of that out.

Quote from: T200 on November 12, 2024, 09:27:53 AMI can only go by what you post. Not a negative word about Jones. You have been one of the most relentless and ardent Jones supporters from Day 1. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and it's not a knock on you. Just stating facts. But now that the writing is clearly on the wall that Jones is on the way out, your focus has been on Schoen and Daboll.

Yes, you want all three gone... but for different reasons. You feel Jones got a raw deal here and never had a chance to live up to what you thought/think he could be. You agree with Mara that the Giants ruined him and you feel bad for him.

You want Schoen and Daboll gone because you feel that they further ruined Jones.

I don't think I misrepresented you at all. Your posts over the years bear all of that out.

Always more fun to defend myself from accusations then talk football 

To your points

1) Your opinions of my views of DJ are not "facts"

2) Are you "The Shadow"?  How do you know what motivates me?


Look, I agree with you when you say I believe DJ has franchise QB potential.   Hell, former NFL scouts Bucky Brooks and Daniel Jeremiah said the same thing just this past week.  The GOAT of film breakdown and analysis, Greg Cossell, said the same thing a couple of seasons ago.

As for blaming Schoen and Daboll for Jones, they are but part of a bigger list that included the dysfunctional organization, the coaching carousel, Judge and Garrett, the lack of the three pillars of support, and the historic beating Jones has received this season, and throughout his career.

I have repeatedly said, after witnessing DJ's lack of confidence etc, that he isn't the answer.  That clearly isn't good enough for you as you demand I lie (because I don't remotely believe it) that he is a no-talent bum who single-handedly took a dysfunctional organization and made it dysfunctional (more disfunction?) for all 6 years he has been here (somehow even forcing him to sign him to a veteran contract).

It's hard to witness the strong negative comments on this thread and the hits thread and not feel like the hyper-focus on Daniel Jones is shielding Schoen and Daboll for any sort of accountability for having their team out of playoff contention before Halloween (a pretty rare event for most teams) two years running.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 12, 2024, 09:43:24 AMAlways more fun to defend myself from accusations then talk football 

To your points

1) Your opinions of my views of DJ are not "facts"

2) Are you "The Shadow"?  How do you know what motivates me?


Look, I agree with you when you say I believe DJ has franchise QB potential.   Hell, former NFL scouts Bucky Brooks and Daniel Jeremiah said the same thing just this past week.  The GOAT of film breakdown and analysis, Greg Cossell, said the same thing a couple of seasons ago.

As for blaming Schoen and Daboll for Jones, they are but part of a bigger list that included the dysfunctional organization, the coaching carousel, Judge and Garrett, the lack of the three pillars of support, and the historic beating Jones has received this season, and throughout his career.

I have repeatedly said, after witnessing DJ's lack of confidence etc, that he isn't the answer.  That clearly isn't good enough for you as you demand I lie (because I don't remotely believe it) that he is a no-talent bum who single-handedly took a dysfunctional organization and made it dysfunctional (more disfunction?) for all 6 years he has been here (somehow even forcing him to sign him to a veteran contract).

It's hard to witness the strong negative comments on this thread and the hits thread and not feel like the hyper-focus on Daniel Jones is shielding Schoen and Daboll for any sort of accountability for having their team out of playoff contention before Halloween (a pretty rare event for most teams) two years running.

Rich, you have not disputed one thing I said about your stance. You elaborated on what I said but you didn't say that I misrepresented your position... because I didn't.

Speaking of misrepresentation, the parts in bold fall into that category.

It's probably best I disengage from discussing Jones, Schoen and Daboll with you as it isn't being carried out in an honest and respectful way.

Quote from: T200 on November 12, 2024, 09:50:38 AMRich, you have not disputed one thing I said about your stance. You elaborated on what I said but you didn't say that I misrepresented your position... because I didn't.

Speaking of misrepresentation, the parts in bold fall into that category.

It's probably best I disengage from discussing Jones, Schoen and Daboll with you as it isn't being carried out in an honest and respectful way.

Tim,

Finally, something we can agree on.  If you are going to attack me personally rather than stick to the topic of discussion, it's best to disengage. 


Based on your comments over the past couple of weeks, you seem intent on proving you were right that Jones was a bad QB from the start rather than admitting that the dysfunctional Giants organization played any role in DJ's failure to develop into a franchise QB. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 12, 2024, 09:25:56 AMEd,

Do you think it's a bit unusual for a GM and HC (without a SB victory or deep playoff run) to enjoy nearly 80% support after leading teams that were out of playoff contention before Halloween for two consecutive years?

After only 3 seasons, one where you've made the playoffs, one where the 'franchise QB' (in terms of money when signed) was injured after 7 games and then 1 absolute sh1t show.

I don't think that warrants a firing of head coach or GM.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 12, 2024, 10:00:06 AMTim,

Finally, something we can agree on.  If you are going to attack me personally rather than stick to the topic of discussion, it's best to disengage. 


Based on your comments over the past couple of weeks, you seem intent on proving you were right that Jones was a bad QB from the start rather than admitting that the dysfunctional Giants organization played any role in DJ's failure to develop into a franchise QB. 

For the record, I'd like you to post the attack on you that I made. Otherwise, you need to stop falsely accusing me.

If you continue to falsely accuse me of attacking you, I will cut my losses and leave the BBH. I deserve better.

Schoen and Daboll took a Gettleman-built roster to the playoffs in 2022, hiding Jones's deficiencies along the way. They literally gave DJ his high-water mark for his career (as a backseat passenger to Barkley driving the bus) and got him paid handsomely. I am actually completely un-surprised to find that people can recognize this and have more faith in the HC/GM duo than a perpetual failure at QB. This also doesn't indicate that people think the HC/GM combo are without blame or should be here for a decade, but really only tells us that they deserve another season... which is not an outlandish position given Daboll's Coach of the Year ability and Schoen's sparkling 2024 draft class.

Quote from: T200 on November 12, 2024, 10:13:30 AMFor the record, I'd like you to post the attack on you that I made. Otherwise, you need to stop falsely accusing me.

If you continue to falsely accuse me of attacking you, I will cut my losses and leave the BBH. I deserve better.

Tim,

When you start characterizing people's positions and motives rather than just discussing topics, you tread on a slippery slope.  If the person you are making the characterizations of doesn't agree with them, there is a natural tendency to feel attacked.  For example:

QuoteLook, I get it. You're all in on Jones and want nothing more to do with Schoen and Daboll.

I am not "all in on Jones" so why say this?


When I said your claim that I was still "all in on Jones" was a mischaracterization, you posted this:

QuoteI can only go by what you post. Not a negative word about Jones. You have been one of the most relentless and ardent Jones supporters from Day 1. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and it's not a knock on you. Just stating facts. But now that the writing is clearly on the wall that Jones is on the way out, your focus has been on Schoen and Daboll.

Yes, you want all three gone... but for different reasons. You feel Jones got a raw deal here and never had a chance to live up to what you thought/think he could be. You agree with Mara that the Giants ruined him and you feel bad for him.

You want Schoen and Daboll gone because you feel that they further ruined Jones.

I don't think I misrepresented you at all. Your posts over the years bear all of that out.

I have repeatedly said Jones isn't the answer, and he's playing like a QB who has lost confidence (aka badly).

How exactly is that "not a negative word"? 


Perhaps "attack" is too strong of a word; perhaps "micro-aggressions" is a better term.

In the second bolded part, you accuse me of "wanting all three gone for different reasons."  The FACT/TRUTH (since I am very familiar with my own "wants") is that I want all three gone for the SAME reason: they are not helping the Giants to win, nor do I believe keeping them will contribute to the team's long term success.  So clearly my actual motives are clearly different than the ones you claimed I had.


Here's the thing, Tim: I don't need you or anyone else to characterize my position, motives, or reasoning.  I can do that myself.  If I am unclear in my position, you are certainly more than welcome to ask me.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 12, 2024, 10:19:57 AMSchoen and Daboll took a Gettleman-built roster to the playoffs in 2022, hiding Jones's deficiencies along the way. They literally gave DJ his high-water mark for his career (as a backseat passenger to Barkley driving the bus) and got him paid handsomely. I am actually completely un-surprised to find that people can recognize this and have more faith in the HC/GM duo than a perpetual failure at QB. This also doesn't indicate that people think the HC/GM combo are without blame or should be here for a decade, but really only tells us that they deserve another season... which is not an outlandish position given Daboll's Coach of the Year ability and Schoen's sparkling 2024 draft class.

To the point in bold, yes, in your framing, DJ being less popular doesn't prove fans are not blaming Shoen and Daboll.  The problem is that it's not a popularity contest.   What proves that the fans are not holding Schoen and Daboll accountable is their nearly 80% support level after two historically bad seasons where they were out of playoff contention by Halloween.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 12, 2024, 10:44:29 AMTo the point in bold, yes, in your framing, DJ being less popular doesn't prove fans are not blaming Shoen and Daboll.  The problem is that it's not a popularity contest.  What proves that the fans are not holding Schoen and Daboll accountable is their nearly 80% support level after two historically bad seasons where they were out of playoff contention by Halloween.

Sorry, but it's not my framing of the data. There's really only one concrete conclusion you can make from the poll as asked: fans want Jones benched this season and don't want to fire Daboll or Schoen this season. (Of course, this is also subject to change since we're not done with the season.) Anything else you want to infer from it is your own interpretation. For instance, for you to say the fans aren't holding Schoen/Daboll accountable, you have to believe the only way to do so is to fire them. And that "accountability" is exclusive to performance in 2023 and 2024, ignoring 2022 (which was a success by most objective measures, even if in the macro-perspective it made the Giants take an ill-fated route thereafter). I'm not making any grand proclamations about what the poll-participants feel outside the confines of what they actually said.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 12, 2024, 10:41:56 AMTim,

When you start characterizing people's positions and motives rather than just discussing topics, you tread on a slippery slope.  If the person you are making the characterizations of doesn't agree with them, there is a natural tendency to feel attacked.  For example:

I am not "all in on Jones" so why say this?


When I said your claim that I was still "all in on Jones" was a mischaracterization, you posted this:

I have repeatedly said Jones isn't the answer, and he's playing like a QB who has lost confidence (aka badly).

How exactly is that "not a negative word"? 


Perhaps "attack" is too strong of a word; perhaps "micro-aggressions" is a better term.

In the second bolded part, you accuse me of "wanting all three gone for different reasons."  The FACT/TRUTH (since I am very familiar with my own "wants") is that I want all three gone for the SAME reason: they are not helping the Giants to win, nor do I believe keeping them will contribute to the team's long term success.  So clearly my actual motives are clearly different than the ones you claimed I had.


Here's the thing, Tim: I don't need you or anyone else to characterize my position, motives, or reasoning.  I can do that myself.  If I am unclear in my position, you are certainly more than welcome to ask me.

Here's the thing, Rich: You falsely accused me of attacking you and when I challenged you to post it, you walk it back to "micro-aggressions." It's no better. The bottom line is that I did not attack you. I'm sick and tired of these false accusations from you against not just me but others. You want to have discussions in good faith but you don't do the same.

Enjoy your day.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 12, 2024, 10:54:09 AMSorry, but it's not my framing of the data. There's really only one concrete conclusion you can make from the poll as asked: fans want Jones benched this season and don't want to fire Daboll or Schoen this season. (Of course, this is also subject to change since we're not done with the season.) Anything else you want to infer from it is your own interpretation. For instance, for you to say the fans aren't holding Schoen/Daboll accountable, you have to believe the only way to do so is to fire them. And that "accountability" is exclusive to performance in 2023 and 2024, ignoring 2022 (which was a success by most objective measures, even if in the macro-perspective it made the Giants take an ill-fated route thereafter. I'm not making any grand proclamations about what the poll-participants feel outside the confines of what they actually said.

The nearly 80% support isn't an "inference"; it's literally the result of the poll.  As I said, in my 4 decades plus of watching football, I never saw such high levels of support after two terrible seasons, especially as they don't have a Super Bowl or deep playoff run to their name.

To the point in bold, in the NFL, there is only one way head coaches and GMs are "held accountable," and that is being fired when they perform badly.  There is no suspensions, pay cuts, or probation punishments in the NFL.

As for your comment about focusing on the last two seasons and ignoring 2022, I think the phrase used to describe the NFL is-  "What have you done for me lately?"

On a related note, you have pointed to the unpopularity of Daniel Jones.  Which pair was in charge when they signed him to a veteran contract?  Seems like a bit of a disconnect there.

Quote from: T200 on November 12, 2024, 10:57:54 AMHere's the thing, Rich: You falsely accused me of attacking you and when I challenged you to post it, you walk it back to "micro-aggressions." It's no better. The bottom line is that I did not attack you. I'm sick and tired of these false accusations from you against not just me but others. You want to have discussions in good faith but you don't do the same.

Enjoy your day.

Tim,

You seem to be ignoring the whole mischaracterization thing. 

Regardless of your intention to attack or not attack, I felt attacked. I am entitled to my feelings. I tried to make peace by using a weaker term, but you only jumped on that effort as proof that I am not entitled to feel attacked when you have mischaracterized what I have said and my positions (as the person holding the positions, I think I am the subject matter expert).

It's not uncommon for people to take offense to how they are characterized. That's why it's a good idea to avoid that approach.