Big Blue Huddle

https://x.com/DDuggan21/status/1858879730851750297

Geez O Pete, here we go with another genius who thinks 2+2=37. They frame the scenario in such a way that makes it look stupid and then comment that it's stupid, while making it seem like it's someone else's idea.

For the record, one situation and circumstances had absolutely nothing to do with the other. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Mara does not "force" people to do things. His influence is more subtle but palatable. I don't see why that's so hard for people like Duggan to understand.

Quote from: T200 on November 19, 2024, 10:09:49 AMGeez O Pete, here we go with another genius who thinks 2+2=37. They frame the scenario in such a way that makes it look stupid and then comment that it's stupid, while making it seem like it's someone else's idea.

For the record, one situation and circumstances had absolutely nothing to do with the other. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Mara does not "force" people to do things. His influence is more subtle but palatable. I don't see why that's so hard for people like Duggan to understand.

I think Dan's point is that Mara's subtle influence would hold little sway over a head coach who just won Coach of the Year and the GM who just took a 4-13 team and had them winning a playoff game.   At that point, Mara's subtle pressure was at its weakest.

So I'm not sure why Mr. Duggan seems to be missing a few relevant details but...

When Daboll and Schoen arrived the team stunk and not surprisingly a big reason for that was the QB stunk. They likely laid out their plan to not pick up the 5th year during their interviews. And mara probably agreed albeit reluctantly because how could he argue even though he liked Jones. The results were the results.

Then that God forsaken 2022 season happens. All of a sudden Jones doesn't look as terrible under Daboll Giants make the playoffs and win a game. Now Mara thinks "wait a minute we can't blow the whole thing up now we're close". (they weren't)

So with Jones and Barkley both as FA and only one franchise tag they had to sign one and tag the other. They tried Barkley during the season and again at that point and he didn't want to be here. I don't blame him. So at th very last minute they had to get Jones a deal they knew he'd take so they could franchise Barkley. But with a 2 year out because even then Schoen knew this was a terrible idea.

At no point were the following 2 opinions even hinted at by Schoen during this process as far as I can tell:

1) Barkley isn't good
2) Daniel Jones is good.

The comment he made "you dont pay a QB $40 million to hand off to a $12 million RB" I felt was a direct shot at Mara saying you wanted this QB and theres only so much money to go around so we can't keep Saquon at that price.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 10:14:57 AMI think Dan's point is that Mara's subtle influence would hold little sway over a head coach who just won Coach of the Year and the GM who just took a 4-13 team and had them winning a playoff game.   At that point, Mara's subtle pressure was at its weakest.

That makes ZERO sense to me. I think we all can agree that Schoen and Daboll didn't want Jones from the jump, hence the 5th-year option declination. I imagine Mara said something to the effect of, "Give this season and see what you can do with him." Boom. Playoff win.

How does Daboll convince the owner, who clearly loves Jones and has a soft spot for him, that after guiding the team to its first playoff victory in a decade, he's not the QB for this franchise?

Quote from: T200 on November 19, 2024, 10:21:05 AMThat makes ZERO sense to me. I think we all can agree that Schoen and Daboll didn't want Jones from the jump, hence the 5th-year option declination. I imagine Mara said something to the effect of, "Give this season and see what you can do with him." Boom. Playoff win.

How does Daboll convince the owner, who clearly loves Jones and has a soft spot for him, that after guiding the team to its first playoff victory in a decade, he's not the QB for this franchise?

To put it another way, how much influence the owner's "suggestions" have over his GM and HC is inversely proportional to their job security.  In other words, the more fear they have for their job, the more inclined they are to listen to Mara's "suggestions."  Both were riding high after the playoff victory season and had little incentive to listen to "suggestions from Mara as they both bought themselves at least two more years.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 10:26:15 AMTo put it another way, how much influence the owner's "suggestions" have over his GM and HC is inversely proportional to their job security.  In other words, the more fear they have for their job, the more inclined they are to listen to Mara's "suggestions."  Both were riding high after the playoff victory season and had little incentive to listen to "suggestions from Mara as they both bought themselves at least two more years.

Frame it how you want. I don't agree.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 10:26:15 AMTo put it another way, how much influence the owner's "suggestions" have over his GM and HC is inversely proportional to their job security.  In other words, the more fear they have for their job, the more inclined they are to listen to Mara's "suggestions."  Both were riding high after the playoff victory season and had little incentive to listen to "suggestions from Mara as they both bought themselves at least two more years.

He's still their boss.  And what's worse, their boss was at that time presented with information that seemingly supported his original hypothesis that Jones could be their franchise QB. It's gonna be hard talking him or anybody down from that spot when they are your boss.  It would be great if Mara sent them christmas cards, checked in on family life, and left the football to the football people but as we saw in Hard Knocks it's not exactly like that.

Quote from: Gmo11 on November 19, 2024, 10:41:05 AMHe's still their boss.  And what's worse, their boss was at that time presented with information that seemingly supported his original hypothesis that Jones could be their franchise QB. It's gonna be hard talking him or anybody down from that spot when they are your boss.  It would be great if Mara sent them christmas cards, checked in on family life, and left the football to the football people but as we saw in Hard Knocks it's not exactly like that.

According to Occam's razor, it's far more likely Schoen and Daboll simply signed DJ because they believed he could prove to be a franchise QB, than they were strong-armed into signing a QB they didn't want because of an owners subtle suggestions.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 10:50:22 AMAccording to Occam's razor, it's far more likely Schoen and Daboll simply signed DJ because they believed he could prove to be a franchise QB, then they were strong-armed into signing a QB they didn't want because of an owners subtle suggestions.

Even though the first order of business upon arrival was to reject his 5th year?  I think Occams Razor applies to the most logical outcome being they never liked him at all.

Quote from: Gmo11 on November 19, 2024, 10:54:40 AMEven though the first order of business upon arrival was to reject his 5th year?  I think Occams Razor applies to the most logical outcome being they never liked him at all.

Only for this to be true, we have to dismiss the fact that the 5th year option was made before working with DJ and the veteran contract was tendered after a year of working with the quarterback.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 10:56:53 AMOnly for this to be true, we have to dismiss the fact that the 5th year option was made before working with DJ and the veteran contract was tendered after a year of working with the quarterback.

I'd like to believe both the GM and head coach were familiar with the QBs work prior to interviewing/accepting the job with the Giants. It's not like it was a big secret across the league that Jones wasn't any good.  Most knew it on draft day, just not Gettleman. 

Quote from: Gmo11 on November 19, 2024, 11:09:00 AMI'd like to believe both the GM and head coach were familiar with the QBs work prior to interviewing/accepting the job with the Giants. It's not like it was a big secret across the league that Jones wasn't any good.  Most knew it on draft day, just not Gettleman. 

Prior to working with the man, most of what they knew about the man was from looking at film and talking to the remaining front office people (the Giants didn't retain any of the prior season's offensive coaching staff to talk to).

There is a lot to learn from a quarterback by seeing how he handles the classroom sessions, coaching, practice, what a QB likes and doesn't like, how they see plays(after the fact), and the like that is important to know but isn't available on the tape

Let's revisit the Barkley issue in 2 years from now so we have a full portrait of whether or not it was the right move to go with the young kids.

Right now it looks like a mistake. We shall see what history says when all is said and done.

Quote from: Trench on November 19, 2024, 11:39:44 AMLet's revisit the Barkley issue in 2 years from now so we have a full portrait of whether or not it was the right move to go with the young kids.

Right now it looks like a mistake. We shall see what history says when all is said and done.

Life comes at you quick in 18-24 months