Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 19, 2024, 10:00:24 AMThere's been plenty of acknowledgement for his efforts. There always had been.

Plus the kicking him when he's down, if you view it that way, is immaterial. He's not reading this board.

If you're reading the posts as "I told you so". I doubt that's why different than a large number of posters thought with the since disappeared "I'm so glad the Giants have found their franchise QB".

I am just expressing how I was raised.  I was raised not to kick a man when he's down.  I certainly wouldn't do it from someone who failed despite his best efforts.   I also think in that case, I was taught to show class and acknowledge the good (because it doesn't cost you anything at that point) and not keep harping on the bad.

That's just how I was raised and values I hold.  I certainly don't expect everyone to share those values.

Okay, again. I don't view it as that but it's up to you.

My parents instilled the idea that one person's could be construed in a variety of different ways, so I'm not going to argue about how "you" feel about reading something.

But on the whole, I don't think there's anything wrong with the fanbase feeling validated. The "haters" were treated as pariahs for a long period of time with every critique admonished as hating and wanting the Giants to lose. Time has shown that side to be correct and if management/ownership saw it the way the haters did. They should be much further along than we actually are.

If you're not seeing that point of view, that's entirely your right.

I keep telling myself to try to not be so cynical. But then, having ached and throbbed my way through yet another of these biased confabulations, I suspect that it is actually hopeless to even try.

On the other hand, it may just be the nature of confabulatory explanations of behavior guided by implicit bias or epistemic innocence in the non-clinical population. So, I guess I should just keep quiet.

Cheers? 

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 19, 2024, 10:16:09 AMOkay, again. I don't view it as that but it's up to you.

My parents instilled the idea that one person's could be construed in a variety of different ways, so I'm not going to argue about how "you" feel about reading something.

But on the whole, I don't think there's anything wrong with the fanbase feeling validated. The "haters" were treated as pariahs for a long period of time with every critique admonished as hating and wanting the Giants to lose. Time has shown that side to be correct and if management/ownership saw it the way the haters did. They should be much further along than we actually are.

If you're not seeing that point of view, that's entirely your right.

I wouldn't describe the fanbase being "validated," and frankly, the way the term is being used, it's hard not to see that term being used as a backdoor, "I told you so"   Considering how the critics outnumbered the people supportive of DJ and how the critics frequently dismiss the circumstance beyond DJ's control that ultimately led to his failure as the Giants starting QB, I am having a hard time with the whole fanbase as the wronged victims being vindicated narrative (which is how I perceive this discussion, and as you said is my right just as you have a right to put forth your perceptions)

Ok so no one really wants to say it, I will and I really don't care what some might think.
I Told You So.
I hated the pick right from that dreadful day whatever number of years ago. But as a fan I did root for Jones to be successful, week after week. I listened to all the excuses made for him and I rooted when I thought they were corrected.
In my mind I never ever believed Jones would be a franchise QB. I didn't just jump on the bandwagon, I was there from day one.
Yes he is a good guy, a hard worker but so are many players who just don't have the talent to make it in the NFL, why aren't you feeling sorry for them?
Being a good guy and a hard worker only carry you so far. Talent makes it in the NFL and Jones is devoid of what really makes a QB stand apart from his peers.
Do I wish him well, of course just anyplace other than on the Giants. Am I being cruel maybe but I feel I have wasted 6 years of my Giant life waiting on him to be good and all I get now is sorry for the guy.
Like the other QB we once had from Duke, glad you're leaving.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 10:55:19 AMI wouldn't describe the fanbase being "validated," and frankly, the way the term is being used, it's hard not to see that term being used as a backdoor, "I told you so"  Considering how the critics outnumbered the people supportive of DJ and how the critics frequently dismiss the circumstance beyond DJ's control that ultimately led to his failure as the Giants starting QB, I am having a hard time with the whole fanbase as the wronged victims being vindicated narrative (which is how I perceive this discussion, and as you said is my right just as you have a right to put forth your perceptions)

Validated or I told you so. I'm not sure why it's so important to you?

This is just the reverse the situation 18 months ago when the Franchise QB was signed.

Perhaps your memory of those threads, and the general contract thread differs to mine. But it was littered with "I told you so".
 

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 19, 2024, 11:14:50 AMValidated or I told you so. I'm not sure why it's so important to you?

This is just the reverse the situation 18 months ago when the Franchise QB was signed.

Perhaps your memory of those threads, and the general contract thread differs to mine. But it was littered with "I told you so".
 

When DJ was signed, there wasn't much in the I told you so vein.  I made it a point to talk to the DJ supporters that "I told you so" is counterproductive.  The reality is part of the reason so few people change their minds is that people inadvertently make it less desirable for people to change their views by gloating or going the whole "I told you so route."

I firmly believe that you increase your odds of people agreeing with you by avoiding the plague, the "I told you so" or "you need to eat crow" troupe.   That's just my position, and I appreciate that not all people who weren't all out on DJ shared my values.

Quote from: LennG on November 19, 2024, 11:05:30 AMOk so no one really wants to say it, I will and I really don't care what some might think.
I Told You So.
I hated the pick right from that dreadful day whatever number of years ago. But as a fan I did root for Jones to be successful, week after week. I listened to all the excuses made for him and I rooted when I thought they were corrected.
In my mind I never ever believed Jones would be a franchise QB. I didn't just jump on the bandwagon, I was there from day one.
Yes he is a good guy, a hard worker but so are many players who just don't have the talent to make it in the NFL, why aren't you feeling sorry for them?
Being a good guy and a hard worker only carry you so far. Talent makes it in the NFL and Jones is devoid of what really makes a QB stand apart from his peers.
Do I wish him well, of course just anyplace other than on the Giants. Am I being cruel maybe but I feel I have wasted 6 years of my Giant life waiting on him to be good and all I get now is sorry for the guy.
Like the other QB we once had from Duke, glad you're leaving.

Perfectly stated. I feel the exact same way.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 11:20:05 AMWhen DJ was signed, there wasn't much in the I told you so vein.  I made it a point to talk to the DJ supporters that "I told you so" is counterproductive.  The reality is part of the reason so few people change their minds is that people inadvertently make it less desirable for people to change their views by gloating or going the whole "I told you so route."

I firmly believe that you increase your odds of people agreeing with you by avoiding the plague, the "I told you so" or "you need to eat crow" troupe.   That's just my position, and I appreciate that not all people who weren't all out on DJ shared my values.

Recollections clearly vary on this point.

Which is fine but it is my firmly held belief that this was neither the vein or goal of the Jones signing thread.

But @LennG points out above. That faction were entirely correct. Which is ultimately meaningless, after all this is just a message board but it's good that the football acumen of those posters are validated with what they saw.

Quote from: LennG on November 19, 2024, 11:05:30 AMOk so no one really wants to say it, I will and I really don't care what some might think.
I Told You So.
I hated the pick right from that dreadful day whatever number of years ago. But as a fan I did root for Jones to be successful, week after week. I listened to all the excuses made for him and I rooted when I thought they were corrected.
In my mind I never ever believed Jones would be a franchise QB. I didn't just jump on the bandwagon, I was there from day one.
Yes he is a good guy, a hard worker but so are many players who just don't have the talent to make it in the NFL, why aren't you feeling sorry for them?
Being a good guy and a hard worker only carry you so far. Talent makes it in the NFL and Jones is devoid of what really makes a QB stand apart from his peers.
Do I wish him well, of course just anyplace other than on the Giants. Am I being cruel maybe but I feel I have wasted 6 years of my Giant life waiting on him to be good and all I get now is sorry for the guy.
Like the other QB we once had from Duke, glad you're leaving.

Lenn,

The arrogance, conceit, and bias exhibited by those who labeled us as "haters" make it impossible for them to acknowledge they were wrong. The most prominent figure in this group set the tone this offseason by proclaiming their evaluation process as superior and dismissing anyone who predicted DJ's trajectory as having arrived at that conclusion through sheer luck.

It's also intellectually dishonest to claim that the so-called "haters" failed to acknowledge DJ's subpar supporting cast. Most of us fully recognized that context while maintaining that a quarterback's abilities can still be evaluated independently of their environment. From my perspective, DJ's inability to quickly read defenses and make anticipatory throws into tight windows was always going to cap his potential.

Like you, I'm happy we're moving on and find the notion of "kicking DJ when's he's down" to be ridiculous and nothing more than a deflection...

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 19, 2024, 11:40:53 AMRecollections clearly vary on this point.

Which is fine but it is my firmly held belief that this was neither the vein or goal of the Jones signing thread.

But @LennG points out above. That faction were entirely correct. Which is ultimately meaningless, after all this is just a message board but it's good that the football acumen of those posters are validated with what they saw.

LOL, I have known Len for over 20 years, and I can't recall a single point over that period when I agreed with him.  So, I think you picked the wrong person to cite in support of your position (at least when discussing it with me)


I will add something that struck me.  @T200 in the Giants dropped from 2nd pick in the draft thread about the randomness and unpredictable nature of the draft and predicting the success and failures of NFL players when pointing out (correctly, in my opinion) that we shouldn't take Bill Belichick's commentary as fact.  Suppose we accept that Bill Belichick's views shouldn't be accepted as fact despite his nearly unmatched football acumen. Why would a single belief about a player (with many outside variables involved) suddenly prove (or disprove) the football acumen of a particular poster?

Again, this is my worldview, but football acumen is hard-earned. It takes time and effort to learn the game of football at a higher level.  Suggesting that saying a quarterback is a bum proves you are a football expert, which is akin to declaring one a roulette expert because you put your money on Red 8 and you won.  Still, this extreme focus on right or wrong is why so many conversations are contentious rather than cooperative.

I will also strongly disagree with your efforts to deny what I said at the time of the contract, as I am not in the habit of lying.

Quote from: kingm56 on November 19, 2024, 11:48:51 AMLenn,

The arrogance, conceit, and bias exhibited by those who labeled us as "haters" make it impossible for them to acknowledge they were wrong.

This belief creates the ugly friction that constantly plagues the forum. I can't imagine a more disrespectful description of people who don't agree with you.

Oh, I completely agree that many things are earned. One thought that ought not to be earned is an admission of getting things wrong. Despite your self proclaimed levels of football acumen, you and the side you sit on were widely incorrect on Daniel Jones being the Franchise QB of the New York Giants.

Quite why it's so difficult for you to admit that, I'm not entirely sure.

Nowhere did I claim, I was a football expert, I'm well aware of what it takes to be an expert in your field. All I said was I, among others, were correct - hence the quoting of Lenn.

The inability of people to own their mistakes, admit they were wrong and ultimately apologise for cultivating a notion of 'haters', is in my opinion (which impacts both the worldview and that of football forums), is why so many conversations are contentious rather than cooperative.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 19, 2024, 11:40:53 AMRecollections clearly vary on this point.

Which is fine but it is my firmly held belief that this was neither the vein or goal of the Jones signing thread.

But @LennG points out above. That faction were entirely correct. Which is ultimately meaningless, after all this is just a message board but it's good that the football acumen of those posters are validated with what they saw.

I suspect a large portion of the board remembers that infamous thread and agrees with your assessment. Many of the narratives from that discussion have proven to be wildly inaccurate, so it's no surprise that the originator is now trying to push a different version of reality. However, you, I, and Rambo were heavily involved in that thread and can likely recall the key details without much effort.  If any objective person recalls differently, please let me know.  I prefer to get it right, vice being right.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 10:02:56 AMI am just expressing how I was raised.  I was raised not to kick a man when he's down.  I certainly wouldn't do it from someone who failed despite his best efforts.   I also think in that case, I was taught to show class and acknowledge the good (because it doesn't cost you anything at that point) and not keep harping on the bad.

That's just how I was raised and values I hold.  I certainly don't expect everyone to share those values.

I get what you are saying, but we are fans on a message board that Jones will never read.  We are not at the stadium mocking him as he leaves or going to house and telling him how much he sucks or harassing his family members.