Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 14, 2024, 07:55:59 AMNeal and Thibs were the cream of the crop that year with Sauce Gardner. I dont know that you can fault Schoen as the only 2 players in that top 13 to succeed were picked before us in Gardner and Hutch.

I'd also argue that a lot of the draft process is built on consensus. The Giants took two consensus top 10 guys at 5 and 7. It would be nice to have a crystal ball to see who was going to be good in the future, but if you find someone who can do that they'd be worth more than almost any player.

A monkey could have picked Nabers. No brain evaluation needed in his case. At large, it's been a terrible history the last three years of pfft.

Tracy is a luck of the draw pick..hardly to warrant Schoen of anything. Don't forget he traded up for Hyatt and womp..nothing.JMS is a pant load, soft and ineffective. Banks has no clue..zero ball skills.

Perhaps Theo can contribute in the pass game..Dru as a nickel..but the latest class insures Schoen of nothing. Nubin is a project..may develop..but we had X  Man..he should have been resigned.

I'm done with these guys. But I have no faith in John Mara to get it right.

Totally irrelevant, but I looked back at George Young's picks in his first three seasons and, apart from Simms and LT, only a couple of names (Billy Ard, 1981 Rd. 8; Byron Hunt, 1981 Rd. 9) and a notable undrafted free agent (Jim Burt, 1981 UDFA) made it through to Super Bowl XXI. Granted, a few other of his picks played into seasons 1984 and 1985, but it shows that Young missed on more than his fair share of picks as well. Of course, out of that core group of five, who made it to Pasadena, along with the elderstatesmen on the team, at the time, they made a great leadership group for the kids drafted from 1983-86 who made up the rest of the Super Bowl Championship roster.

It's a dark tunnel right now and there is no light whatsoever towards a Super Bowl or anything resembling winning football. This group has to figure out how to win and become leaders or they'll be gone, period. It doesn't matter where they were drafted. They produce or it's over, their choice.

Harry Carson was one of two, forth-round picks the Giants had in the 1976 draft (NOTE: Running Back Gordie Bell was the other). The Giants invested their #1 pick in Troy Archer, Defensive Tackle. In the end, Harry stood tall as a Super Bowl Champion and crowned "Captain for Life." A distinguished man of great pride, he gave his all and showed courage and determination during the darkest of times during the original "Wilderness Years."

We need another Harry Carson to lead this modern day group of Giants out of the Wilderness, yet again, and back on the map of NFL relevance.

Peace!

Quote from: jgrangers2 on December 14, 2024, 09:24:11 AMI'd also argue that a lot of the draft process is built on consensus. The Giants took two consensus top 10 guys at 5 and 7. It would be nice to have a crystal ball to see who was going to be good in the future, but if you find someone who can do that they'd be worth more than almost any player.

I don't remember a consensus for Thibs.  There were knocks about him taking plays off and not being able to bend which is important for pass rushers.

He was a bit polarizing because of some of his physical tools, but there were definitely people who questioned him as a top 10 pick. 

Quote from: ralphpal1 on December 13, 2024, 06:46:51 AMThey were ready to pick Hyatt in the 2nd round
Why isnt he playing
If he is worthy of a second round pick
Either their scouts were wrong
Or
They dont have the ability to coach someone up

OR BOTH !!!!!!!!

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 14, 2024, 07:55:59 AMNeal and Thibs were the cream of the crop that year with Sauce Gardner. I dont know that you can fault Schoen as the only 2 players in that top 13 to succeed were picked before us in Gardner and Hutch.

Fair point although he still made the picks. Nobody else did.

I would also argue the rest of his drafting has been shaky at best. 2024 looks like it could be respectable, but the rest of 2022 and 2023 (outside of Thibs and Neal) were horrible. Picks like Wan'Dale, Ezeudu, Flott, Hyatt, Schmitz, etc have been disastrous.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 14, 2024, 10:28:27 AMI don't remember a consensus for Thibs.  There were knocks about him taking plays off and not being able to bend which is important for pass rushers.

He was a bit polarizing because of some of his physical tools, but there were definitely people who questioned him as a top 10 pick. 

Go back and look at any draft ranking from the time. KT was top 10 on pretty much every list. PFF and Scouts Inc. had him at 7 and Daniel Jeremiah had him at 10. The red flag on him seemed to be how committed he was to football but I don't think that's an issue that has reared its head.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 14, 2024, 07:55:59 AMNeal and Thibs were the cream of the crop that year with Sauce Gardner. I dont know that you can fault Schoen as the only 2 players in that top 13 to succeed were picked before us in Gardner and Hutch.

We have no idea what other teams thought of Thibs and Neal.  All we know were media pundits and the Giants.

Quote from: Philosophers on December 15, 2024, 09:13:42 AMWe have no idea what other teams thought of Thibs and Neal.  All we know were media pundits and the Giants.

Exactly.  We only know those picking before the Giants didn't pick them. 

Pundits don't have a team of scouts in general and are watching film only.  No interviews, no (or not) live viewing and they are looking at a much broader group of players.

Quote from: jgrangers2 on December 14, 2024, 10:18:23 PMGo back and look at any draft ranking from the time. KT was top 10 on pretty much every list. PFF and Scouts Inc. had him at 7 and Daniel Jeremiah had him at 10. The red flag on him seemed to be how committed he was to football but I don't think that's an issue that has reared its head.

The lack of bend was brought up by a number of people.  Further, the above is important.  Pundits don't have all the info.  It's not like Thibodeaux tore it up in the PAC-12.  His 1st season he had 9 sacks and that was his best total in college.  Followed it up with 3 and 7.  A big part of the reason he was rated highly by pundits was his position.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 15, 2024, 10:15:56 AMThe lack of bend was brought up by a number of people.  Further, the above is important.  Pundits don't have all the info.  It's not like Thibodeaux tore it up in the PAC-12.  His 1st season he had 9 sacks and that was his best total in college.  Followed it up with 3 and 7.  A big part of the reason he was rated highly by pundits was his position.

There are very few perfect prospects. You're generally betting on upside. Most people thought Thibodeaux had the potential to be a very good NFL player despite the bend issues. Also, for reference, Travon Walker had 9.5 sacks combined in his 3 college seasons yet had 10 last year and is on pace for double digits again this year. Everyone wants there to be some magic ways to decipher who will be a good player and who won't but, like I said, if there was somebody who could consistently do that they'd be as valuable as almost any player.

Quote from: jgrangers2 on December 15, 2024, 11:51:39 AMThere are very few perfect prospects. You're generally betting on upside. Most people thought Thibodeaux had the potential to be a very good NFL player despite the bend issues. Also, for reference, Travon Walker had 9.5 sacks combined in his 3 college seasons yet had 10 last year and is on pace for double digits again this year. Everyone wants there to be some magic ways to decipher who will be a good player and who won't but, like I said, if there was somebody who could consistently do that they'd be as valuable as almost any player.

I think there are TEAMs of people, not one person, that are better drafters than others.  There is no one person who does all the scouting, interviews draft board arrangement by themselves working in  an NFL office.

Over time teams like the Steelers and Ravens have been able maintain a good team with multiple QBs.  It's not just luck.

Edit:  interesting you brought up Travon Walker.  Wasn't consensus that he was not a good pick? 

Quote from: kartanoman on December 14, 2024, 10:04:59 AMTotally irrelevant, but I looked back at George Young's picks in his first three seasons and, apart from Simms and LT, only a couple of names (Billy Ard, 1981 Rd. 8; Byron Hunt, 1981 Rd. 9) and a notable undrafted free agent (Jim Burt, 1981 UDFA) made it through to Super Bowl XXI. Granted, a few other of his picks played into seasons 1984 and 1985, but it shows that Young missed on more than his fair share of picks as well. Of course, out of that core group of five, who made it to Pasadena, along with the elderstatesmen on the team, at the time, they made a great leadership group for the kids drafted from 1983-86 who made up the rest of the Super Bowl Championship roster.

It's a dark tunnel right now and there is no light whatsoever towards a Super Bowl or anything resembling winning football. This group has to figure out how to win and become leaders or they'll be gone, period. It doesn't matter where they were drafted. They produce or it's over, their choice.

Harry Carson was one of two, forth-round picks the Giants had in the 1976 draft (NOTE: Running Back Gordie Bell was the other). The Giants invested their #1 pick in Troy Archer, Defensive Tackle. In the end, Harry stood tall as a Super Bowl Champion and crowned "Captain for Life." A distinguished man of great pride, he gave his all and showed courage and determination during the darkest of times during the original "Wilderness Years."

We need another Harry Carson to lead this modern day group of Giants out of the Wilderness, yet again, and back on the map of NFL relevance.

Peace!

Great post.