Big Blue Huddle

Since Joe Schoen's "We're not that far off" comment at his bye week presser, Giants have been outscored 106-52 and are 0-4.

Kat

You also lived thru Wilderness I, and what was the trademark of all those years, terrible QB play and we went through coaches like we are doing now. Once we secured a good QB, seemed those Wilderness years seemed to leave in a hurry. Coaches, for the most part, are only as good as the talent they have to work with. As I have said, did BB forget how to coach once he lost Brady and was saddled with incompetent QBs, Can you say the same thing about Shula, Noll, and even Allie Sherman? Were these once-great coaches, now bums because they just didn't have competent players?

So who is out there that will be a better HC? The ONLY one I MIGHT want in here is Vrabel. Anyone else is again, the hot guy of the year. If not Vrabel, I stay with Daboll and a new QB. Schoen needs another year.

Quote from: katkavage on December 15, 2024, 08:10:09 PMNot if the stability is not justified. And hard to believe in a record of absolute failure.

Firing coaches after 2-3 years is the very definition of instability. How would you justify stability?

You see it as absolute failure. I personally dig deeper beyond "you are what your record says you are" and see there are many reasons for the losses that don't start or end with Schoen and Daboll.

They are, however, charged with fixing it. But if one of their hands are tied behind their backs and can't go all-in with their plan, that's not their fault either. The owner admitted with his own mouth that they did less than they could/should have to support Jones. In an effort to make it right, he inadvertently handicapped his management team.

I think he sees that and will be hands off this next season and allow Schoen and Daboll to see their plan through.

Quote from: T200 on December 15, 2024, 08:48:28 PMFiring coaches after 2-3 years is the very definition of instability. How would you justify stability?

You see it as absolute failure. I personally dig deeper beyond "you are what your record says you are" and see there are many reasons for the losses that don't start or end with Schoen and Daboll.

They are, however, charged with fixing it. But if one of their hands are tied behind their backs and can't go all-in with their plan, that's not their fault either. The owner admitted with his own mouth that they did less than they could/should have to support Jones. In an effort to make it right, he inadvertently handicapped his management team.

I think he sees that and will be hands off this next season and allow Schoen and Daboll to see their plan through.

Sadly, you are probably right that Mara, and his record of complete failure as an owner, will do the easy thing and keep this team to run things despite a record-setting season of absolute futility. I usually don't make predictions, but I've watched the game long enough to be confident that if not next year, than the year after, this team will be gone. And it will be rinse and repeat. I've seen nothing at all to even give me a glimmer of hope.

Quote from: katkavage on December 15, 2024, 08:55:01 PMSadly, you are probably right that Mara, and his record of complete failure as an owner, will do the easy thing and keep this team to run things despite a record-setting season of absolute futility. I usually don't make predictions, but I've watched the game long enough to be confident that if not next year, than the year after, this team will be gone. And it will be rinse and repeat. I've seen nothing at all to even give me a glimmer of hope.

And if that happens, I'd be 100% fine with it. That would mean that they, even with their own QB, couldn't figure it out.

Quote from: LennG on December 15, 2024, 08:43:13 PMKat

You also lived thru Wilderness I, and what was the trademark of all those years, terrible QB play and we went through coaches like we are doing now. Once we secured a good QB, seemed those Wilderness years seemed to leave in a hurry. Coaches, for the most part, are only as good as the talent they have to work with. As I have said, did BB forget how to coach once he lost Brady and was saddled with incompetent QBs, Can you say the same thing about Shula, Noll, and even Allie Sherman? Were these once-great coaches, now bums because they just didn't have competent players?

So who is out there that will be a better HC? The ONLY one I MIGHT want in here is Vrabel. Anyone else is again, the hot guy of the year. If not Vrabel, I stay with Daboll and a new QB. Schoen needs another year.

Lenn, it won't take much to better the job Daboll has done here. It's as bad as almost any coach the Giants have ever have. I suggest listening to the podcast on the Athletic about coaching vacancies (Giants are not included) and potential candidates. Lots of very good names out there.

Quote from: T200 on December 15, 2024, 08:58:49 PMAnd if that happens, I'd be 100% fine with it. That would mean that they, even with their own QB, couldn't figure it out.

And two more years gone and another rebuild. It's gonna happen. Count on it.

Quote from: katkavage on December 15, 2024, 09:00:19 PMAnd two more years gone and another rebuild. It's gonna happen. Count on it.

Not to mention the lack of continuity for the new QB. Those preaching continuity don't seem to care about ensuring continuity when you make a big investment in the QB position. Coughlin/Eli is the model we should be trying to replicate. That way you ensure the QB and HC are able to grow together. That's actual, meaningful continuity.

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on December 15, 2024, 09:12:08 PMNot to mention the lack of continuity for the new QB. Those preaching continuity don't seem to care about ensuring continuity when you make a big investment in the QB position. Coughlin/Eli is the model we should be trying to replicate. That way you ensure the QB and HC are able to grow together. That's actual, meaningful continuity.

You're already projecting that these guys will be fired in 2 years. Yet, you're optimistic another duo will right the ship. Knowing they current duo didn't have a decent QB to lead the team, why not give them the same opportunity with a legit QB that you're willing to do for a new regime?

Quote from: T200 on December 15, 2024, 10:34:20 PMYou're already projecting that these guys will be fired in 2 years. Yet, you're optimistic another duo will right the ship. Knowing they current duo didn't have a decent QB to lead the team, why not give them the same opportunity with a legit QB that you're willing to do for a new regime?

You're missing the point, I'm neither optimistic nor pessimistic. I'm talking about correct process vs incorrect process. The correct process is to hire a head coach with a clean slate and allow him to participate in selecting his QB. The incorrect process is to keep a head coach on a short leash that is depending on a rookie QB to save his job.

Has the team improved under this regime?

Therein will lie Mara's decision.

Imagine for a moment that Tom Coughlin had just finished coaching two disastrous seasons for the Giants before they drafted Eli. What do you think would've happened when Eli looked terrible as a rookie? People would've given up on Coughlin, he would've been fired, and Eli would've gone into year 2 with no continuity. It's the stupidest and laziest thing you can do to a young QB.

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on December 15, 2024, 10:42:16 PMYou're missing the point, I'm neither optimistic nor pessimistic. I'm talking about correct process vs incorrect process. The correct process is to hire a head coach with a clean slate and allow him to participate in selecting his QB. The incorrect process is to keep a head coach on a short leash that is depending on a rookie QB to save his job.

Well, those are your definitions and I accept that.

I see it differently.

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on December 15, 2024, 10:42:16 PMYou're missing the point, I'm neither optimistic nor pessimistic. I'm talking about correct process vs incorrect process. The correct process is to hire a head coach with a clean slate and allow him to participate in selecting his QB. The incorrect process is to keep a head coach on a short leash that is depending on a rookie QB to save his job.

Agreed. If Daboll stays and we go 0-4 next season everyone knows he will be gone. Just do it now. The guy doesn't exude confidence and apparently the locker room is wishy washy on him anyway. He certainly had the look today of unraveling and melting. We probably need a defensive minded head coach.

Quote from: T200 on December 15, 2024, 10:34:20 PMYou're already projecting that these guys will be fired in 2 years. Yet, you're optimistic another duo will right the ship. Knowing they current duo didn't have a decent QB to lead the team, why not give them the same opportunity with a legit QB that you're willing to do for a new regime?

Because it's not just the QB.  Is there really any part of the team and roster that has seen significant improvement during their regime?  Surely the complete deterioration of the whole team since the "glory days" of the deeply misleading 2022 can't be excused by laying it at Daniel Jones' feet?