Big Blue Huddle

Yeah it'

Quote from: MrGap92 on December 16, 2024, 12:19:32 PMA few things I'd do differently, assuming it is with foresight knowing what we know now.

- Not resign Jones, let him walk and use some of that money to resign Saquon sooner. I would have given Tyrod a 3 yr deal instead of a 2yr deal to be the bridge QB over this duration.

- Resign Julian Love

- Draft Linderbaum instead of Neal. Since JMS is no longer needed, draft Tank Dell with that pick.

- Sign Eleumenor in 2022 instead of 2024.

- Play starters more in preseason, and less OL shuffling.

- Not trade for Hyatt, use those picks for DeVon Achane and Puka Nacua

- If there was anything that could be done to snag Ken Dorsey as OC in 2022, get it done

- Same for Dennard Wilson as DC this season.

- Not trade for Banks, draft Joey Porter Jr a pick later, and use picks 160/240 for Jarrett Patterson and Ivan Pace Jr.

That has us going into 2024 still needing a QB, but our coordinators are significantly better, and the new QB has a WR trio of Nabers/Nacua/Dell and Barkley/Achane/Tracy at RB along with an OL upgrade at C.

Biggest Needs 2024 at this point: QB, RG, Swing, DT, CB

I'd push hard for Trey Smith and Paulson Adebo, and then see how the draft falls. In a perfect world after two rounds we get Ward or Sanders and Deone Walker.

Yeah it's pretty easy to say all this now. I could also be a great GM if I could look 1,2, 3 years into the future.

Did you say all these things on those draft days?

Quote from: LennG on December 16, 2024, 12:27:27 PMYeah it'Yeah it's pretty easy to say all this now. I could also be a great GM if I could look 1,2, 3 years into the future.

Did you say all these things on those draft days?

"A few things I'd do differently, assuming it is with foresight knowing what we know now."

Having both the GM and the HC come in with absolutely no experience. I think that hurt us badly.

Both have had to learn on the fly. We blame Schoen for certain things and maybe we should, but look at the situation he came to this team under. We were in cap hell and had to let good players walk. What was he to do about that? He has tried to clear space and still bring in decent enough Free Agents, some hit and others missed. He had a couple of poor drafts but hopefully, he hit a home run with this last draft. How can you knock him when the draft was a really good one?
Personally, if I were hiring at the time and Schoen was the boy genius, I might have gone for a coach with some experience.
I think Schoen has learned a lot, I'm not so sure about Daboll.

Quote from: katkavage on December 16, 2024, 12:12:23 PMWorse than a 2-win season preceded by a 5-win season?

It's Stockholm Syndrome.

Their original sin was completely misreading the significance, or rather insignificance, of the 2022 season.  Despite making the playoffs and winning a playoff game they were a bad team in need of a complete rebuilding.  Everything flowed from there.

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on December 16, 2024, 12:21:17 PMThe elephant on the field is the QB position. Obviously that was mishandled from the start. But even this past off-season, you have to invest in a really good backup QB.

One of the other issues I heard Bobby Skinner bring up is the secondary. I don't think people are talking enough about how disappointing this group has been. They've invested a 1st round pick, a 2nd, two 3rds, and a 4th in the last 3 years. Yet, we're last in INTs and 3rd to last in PDs, 3rd to last in completion percentage,  and 5th to last in yards per completion. It's a real problem considering the draft capital they invested.

Drafting Thibs and Neal.

It's hard to judge Brian Daboll's performance as HC beyond my impression that his Giants teams have not seemed well-prepared to start a season. However, prior to this season's Schoen/Daboll hate fest, he was spoken of in the media as a special talent for whom others would line up to employ. So, quien sabe?

I do not have the same hesitancy when it comes to Joe Schoen who I feel inherited Gettleman/Mara's mess in terms of poor talent, most notably at QB and Cap position. As under those circumstance, however, I have been sufficiently satisfied with both next year's and the even more fluent 2026 Cap, and with the above average success of his 2024 Draft which includes at least 5 of the 6 guys taken.

While it was an extraordinary event that brought the pair of Schoen and Daboll to the Giants from the same place at the same time. I would hope that we would not think of them as necessarily attached at the hip.

In any case, despite the disgrace which has been this season, I am more optimistic about the future- next several years- than I have been in quite a while. Thus, I hope to not have haste make waste.

Cheers!

What really stands out as the two worst aspects of this regime are the Jones contract and the drafts.

The 2024 draft may have been superior to the other two, but 2022 and 2023 were pretty brutal.

I understand they were in a tricky spot after 2022 at QB. While Jones was not all that good in 2022, the team (by recent history's standards) had a solid season and Jones had had his best season of his career. Still, he wasn't very good, so at most they should have tagged him. Handing him a $40m/per contract with a minimum of a two year obligation and still having to eat meaningful dead money after the two years was a really bad move. Tag at most, or sign a vet and try to get yourself a Mayfield, Geno, or Darnold in Minny type situation for a year or two while you wait for an opportunity in the draft.

As for the drafts, luck is a factor, but some of Schoen's picks have been head scratchers. Wan'Dale qualifies as that. Your average armchair GM eating buffalo wings on his couch at home knew Pickens was a way better prospect than Wan'Dale. Ezeudu was another one. Top of the third round for that guy? Really?

I can name others but won't. Bottom line the drafts have stunk. Certainly 2022 and 2023 did.

You need to be able to draft and develop in the NFL. You can have a bad year, but if you are consistently bad with drafting/developing you don't stand much of a chance. We have been absolutely dreadful in this area for a long, long time now. I thought it would get better under the Schoen/Daboll regime, but I was clearly wrong about that.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 16, 2024, 05:09:49 PMWhat really stands out as the two worst aspects of this regime are the Jones contract and the drafts.

The 2024 draft may have been superior to the other two, but 2022 and 2023 were pretty brutal.

I understand they were in a tricky spot after 2022 at QB. While Jones was not all that good in 2022, the team (by recent history's standards) had a solid season and Jones had had his best season of his career. Still, he wasn't very good, so at most they should have tagged him. Handing him a $40m/per contract with a minimum of a two year obligation and still having to eat meaningful dead money after the two years was a really bad move. Tag at most, or sign a vet and try to get yourself a Mayfield, Geno, or Darnold in Minny type situation for a year or two while you wait for an opportunity in the draft.

As for the drafts, luck is a factor, but some of Schoen's picks have been head scratchers. Wan'Dale qualifies as that. Your average armchair GM eating buffalo wings on his couch at home knew Pickens was a way better prospect than Wan'Dale. Ezeudu was another one. Top of the third round for that guy? Really?

I can name others but won't. Bottom line the drafts have stunk. Certainly 2022 and 2023 did.

You need to be able to draft and develop in the NFL. You can have a bad year, but if you are consistently bad with drafting/developing you don't stand much of a chance. We have been absolutely dreadful in this area for a long, long time now. I thought it would get better under the Schoen/Daboll regime, but I was clearly wrong about that.

While I like Wandale, I will admit, I had no idea who that was when they drafted him. Through all thing I look at, not once did I ever see or hear his name or any tape prior to the pick being in.

Does anyone think that keeping Jones in place the remainder of the season with perhaps giving a start each to Tommy and Drew in December, that the Giants would have won a couple of games down the stretch and things might not have looked as bad?

It's an intangible but releasing Jones did have an effect on the locker room. That's been substantiated as decided by Mara.

Also the decision to protect the cap over winning games also had its effect.

I think the whole thing started to unravel prior to Schoen and Daboll. Pat Shurmur had one year to work with Daniel Jones. They had some success even though it didn't show in the win column. Jones had 24 TD's in 13 games with 3000 yards. He averaged 300 yards and 30 points the last three games of the 2019 season. The problem was the Defense.

When Schoen came on board, it was clear that Jones and the Offense was in decline. The 2022 draft class was the worse in the last seven seasons. They never properly evaluated that season in terms of how it trended at the end. It forced the DJ contract and it forced the Drafting for need.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 16, 2024, 05:09:49 PMWhat really stands out as the two worst aspects of this regime are the Jones contract and the drafts.

The 2024 draft may have been superior to the other two, but 2022 and 2023 were pretty brutal.

I understand they were in a tricky spot after 2022 at QB. While Jones was not all that good in 2022, the team (by recent history's standards) had a solid season and Jones had had his best season of his career. Still, he wasn't very good, so at most they should have tagged him. Handing him a $40m/per contract with a minimum of a two year obligation and still having to eat meaningful dead money after the two years was a really bad move. Tag at most, or sign a vet and try to get yourself a Mayfield, Geno, or Darnold in Minny type situation for a year or two while you wait for an opportunity in the draft.

As for the drafts, luck is a factor, but some of Schoen's picks have been head scratchers. Wan'Dale qualifies as that. Your average armchair GM eating buffalo wings on his couch at home knew Pickens was a way better prospect than Wan'Dale. Ezeudu was another one. Top of the third round for that guy? Really?

I can name others but won't. Bottom line the drafts have stunk. Certainly 2022 and 2023 did.

You need to be able to draft and develop in the NFL. You can have a bad year, but if you are consistently bad with drafting/developing you don't stand much of a chance. We have been absolutely dreadful in this area for a long, long time now. I thought it would get better under the Schoen/Daboll regime, but I was clearly wrong about that.

Most agree that the first 2 drafts were weak, but again, he is learning on the fly and his last draft was a home run. Dosn't he deserve another draft just to see if he has finally figured it out?

Quote from: MrGap92 on December 16, 2024, 05:20:20 PMWhile I like Wandale, I will admit, I had no idea who that was when they drafted him. Through all thing I look at, not once did I ever see or hear his name or any tape prior to the pick being in.

I just think players with Wan'Dale's profile are readily available on day three in most drafts, and you can get guys like that in free agency too. They're not that hard to find. Is he that much different from what Richie James was for us a couple years back? We got that guy off the street.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 16, 2024, 05:25:03 PMI just think players with Wan'Dale's profile are readily available on day three in most drafts, and you can get guys like that in free agency too. They're not that hard to find. Is he that much different from what Richie James was for us a couple years back? We got that guy off the street.

That first draft felt like a GM trying to outsmart everyone else. Always felt it was weird that he seemed to way overdraft both UNC guards.

Quote from: babywhales on December 16, 2024, 11:55:01 AMI think both learned along the way and are getting better.

The one mistake that can not be undone was the contract extension for Jones and his inability to take the next developmental step. Jones should have been franchised.
It is looking like that mistake will cost both their jobs.

They could not franchise him.  They would have been screwed with the cap.  They needed to give him a longer deal with a low cap hit in year 1 or to let him walk. 

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 16, 2024, 05:22:31 PMDoes anyone think that keeping Jones in place the remainder of the season with perhaps giving a start each to Tommy and Drew in December, that the Giants would have won a couple of games down the stretch and things might not have looked as bad?

It's an intangible but releasing Jones did have an effect on the locker room. That's been substantiated as decided by Mara.

Also the decision to protect the cap over winning games also had its effect.

I think the whole thing started to unravel prior to Schoen and Daboll. Pat Shurmur had one year to work with Daniel Jones. They had some success even though it didn't show in the win column. Jones had 24 TD's in 13 games with 3000 yards. He averaged 300 yards and 30 points the last three games of the 2019 season. The problem was the Defense.

When Schoen came on board, it was clear that Jones and the Offense was in decline. The 2022 draft class was the worse in the last seven seasons. They never properly evaluated that season in terms of how it trended at the end. It forced the DJ contract and it forced the Drafting for need.

No.  Jones was effin terrible.  Would have just been happy players losing games instead of upset players losing.