Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: katkavage on December 20, 2024, 09:06:46 AMThe same can be said about the drafting of Barkley. At the time I was against it and despite how good he was and is, picking him at number two in a QB heavy draft where three, maybe four, of the five QBs drafted will be franchise or better QBs was a monumental mistake. Thinking Barkley would help an aging Manning was the height of stupidity. You build teams with the lines and QB. Not with running back and wide receivers.

I completely agree.

History shows you don't build a winning football team with skill players.  You build it with dominant lines on both sides of the ball.  Yeah you need a QB but you need a QB who has enough time to go through progressions to find the right guy to get the ball.  Hike run for your life is not winning football.  You need a dominant line to open holes for your running game. So they made a mistake with bidding against themselves for Jones, then because of that, they made a mistake with Barkley, and then they made a mistake drafting Nabers (no knock on him at all).  No good line, no QB, no star running back to give the defense TWO things to think about with Nabers and Barkley.  And here they sit with 2 wins.  Genius!

What came first the chicken or the egg?

No QB? Can't draft a WR or RB early. Wasted talent.
No WR? Can't draft a QB. He will not have anyone to throw to so continue to do nothing on offense
No RB? Can't draft a QB. Who will help block and get those rushing yards while he is developing?
No OL? Can't draft a QB, he will get crushed. Can't draft a RB. He has no where to run. Can't draft a WR as the QB won't have time to throw.

See it's an endless cycle of ridiculousness.

Quote from: TDToomer on December 20, 2024, 10:44:56 AMWhat came first the chicken or the egg?

No QB? Can't draft a WR or RB early. Wasted talent.
No WR? Can't draft a QB. He will not have anyone to throw to so continue to do nothing on offense
No RB? Can't draft a QB. Who will help block and get those rushing yards while he is developing?
No OL? Can't draft a QB, he will get crushed. Can't draft a RB. He has no where to run. Can't draft a WR as the QB won't have time to throw.

See it's an endless cycle of ridiculousness.

Accorsi did it the right way.  He hired Tom Coughlin to ensure the scheme/coaching was covered.  When he traded for Eli, he then drafted Chris Snee and signed O'Hara in free agency to add to  Luke Petitgout, David Deahl, and Jason Whittle so that Eli would be protected while he learned the NFL.  Eli would be throwing to Toomer, Hillard, Tiki Barber, and Shockey.   Eli had the pieces in place so he could develop into a solid NFL quarterback.  I believe player development is the under-appreciated X-factor when it comes to drafting.

If you don't have the pillars of support, the chances that your drafted QB will thrive are so much worse. 

I don't think it was a mistake to take a guy who's about to put up 1,000 yards his rookie season having missed a couple games and had 3 truly terrible QBs throwing him the ball.  This guy is supremely talented, and with competency at QB the sky really is the limit to what he can become.

However this can quickly become a mistake if they don't get him a QB and I mean fast.  It reminds me a lot of the Barkley pick.  Nobody questions Barkley is talented, but if you take a RB and then trade away the only other offensive threat on the team, you're crippling him before he can even really get started.  If you take Nabers and then don't immediately get him a QB that can actually use him, all you're going to do is waste that talent and watch him walk away in 4 years or sooner if you trade him.  And that's if one of these errant passes doesn't get him killed. 

As long as they lose out, they will get him a QB.  Whether that QB is any good remains to be seen, but it would be hard to be worse than what he dealt with this season no matter who they take.  Please lose out!

Not many QBs are successful without an amazing WR
Now if we pick the wrong QB
Then it was a waste
But if we pick the right QB
They can grow together
Take away nico Collins and CJ Stroud is not as good
Take away that WR from the commanders
How is J Daniel's doing
Let them grow into becoming a  great QB
And a star WR helps
Don't you think it help progress Josh Allen that he had Diggs until he didnt need him anymore

Quote from: Gmo11 on December 20, 2024, 01:39:31 PMI don't think it was a mistake to take a guy who's about to put up 1,000 yards his rookie season having missed a couple games and had 3 truly terrible QBs throwing him the ball.  This guy is supremely talented, and with competency at QB the sky really is the limit to what he can become.

Just 3 truly terrible QBs? I guess Boyle is the lucky one that has been decent!

I think Nabers is a top shelf talent.

Will he work out on the Giants? That remains to be seen.

Quote from: TDToomer on December 20, 2024, 03:01:56 PMJust 3 truly terrible QBs? I guess Boyle is the lucky one that has been decent!

hahaha touche!

Schoen/Daboll were stuck, trapped and yoked by what we all now know- as masters of hindsight- was the misfortune of having Daniel Jones perform in that one season in a manner unrepresentative of his and the team's talent. Of course, they should have recognized that as did we. We did, didn't we? No?

As a certain wise man once asserted, "We are entitled to own opinions, but not to our own facts" But what if our own opinions seem supported by our own facts namely that the Giants suck? Don't we then have to find someone to blame lest we look like fools for continuing to support such losers? Ay! There's the rub.

For in what we know as the Super Bowl era beginning in 1966, the Giants have had a winning record i.e., more wins than losses in just 22 of 58 seasons to date. They have had 6 GMs and 14 HCs during that span, and while it may be hard to believe, the only Giants HC to have had more winning than losing seasons was Bill Parcells who then bailed after 8 seasons and a 2nd Lombo.
 
Then some 15 years later when Tom Coughlin's Giants had two more Super Bowl trophies, and did have an overall winning record, it was in only half of his 12 seasons that the team won more games than it lost. And with the last 3 being among them, it was goodbye, Major Tom.

You might be wondering if what I am trying to prove is that where fact meets opinion, the Giants do not have much of winner's history. True as that may be, I am building a case against haste. Against the notion that we must, once again make changes in Managment, Coaches, and Staff if we are ever to get better.

I just don't see it that way even if I thought we would somehow suddenly figure out who would be better choices at this point. And I simply do not. Rather I see haste making waste for the following reasons:

Now, with ample cap space and a lot more in 2026, in addition to this year's above average Draft, they will add a vet QB as bridge/backup to either Sanders or Ward in the Draft along with an essentially 1st Round grade OT and a couple of top-50/top-100 graded players at CB and WR2 and then maybe a DT and another OL, etc. We also should be aware of the sudden appearance at ORT in the past 5 games of the guy we were sure was a 7th overall pick bust. Instead, he is now performing at a level which has him ranked 4th in run blocking and in the top third overall among OTs. How nice is that?

Sure, I know that this may be the single worst Giants season ever in terms of W/L but I am feeling really bullish about the future and so I would hate to see us blink.

Cheers!

 

I think folks here that believe Nabers was the smart pick are right that he has put up great stats with marginal QB play and frankly could blow the top off with good QB play.  That said, it still is about the 2025 draft picks with one hopefully being a QB and that QB succeeding. 

Quote from: Painter on December 20, 2024, 11:04:53 PMSchoen/Daboll were stuck, trapped and yoked by what we all now know- as masters of hindsight- was the misfortune of having Daniel Jones perform in that one season in a manner unrepresentative of his and the team's talent. Of course, they should have recognized that as did we. We did, didn't we? No?

As a certain wise man once asserted, "We are entitled to own opinions, but not to our own facts" But what if our own opinions seem supported by our own facts namely that the Giants suck? Don't we then have to find someone to blame lest we look like fools for continuing to support such losers? Ay! There's the rub.

For in what we know as the Super Bowl era beginning in 1966, the Giants have had a winning record i.e., more wins than losses in just 22 of 58 seasons to date. They have had 6 GMs and 14 HCs during that span, and while it may be hard to believe, the only Giants HC to have had more winning than losing seasons was Bill Parcells who then bailed after 8 seasons and a 2nd Lombo.
 
Then some 15 years later when Tom Coughlin's Giants had two more Super Bowl trophies, and did have an overall winning record, it was in only half of his 12 seasons that the team won more games than it lost. And with the last 3 being among them, it was goodbye, Major Tom.

You might be wondering if what I am trying to prove is that where fact meets opinion, the Giants do not have much of winner's history. True as that may be, I am building a case against haste. Against the notion that we must, once again make changes in Managment, Coaches, and Staff if we are ever to get better.

I just don't see it that way even if I thought we would somehow suddenly figure out who would be better choices at this point. And I simply do not. Rather I see haste making waste for the following reasons:

Now, with ample cap space and a lot more in 2026, in addition to this year's above average Draft, they will add a vet QB as bridge/backup to either Sanders or Ward in the Draft along with an essentially 1st Round grade OT and a couple of top-50/top-100 graded players at CB and WR2 and then maybe a DT and another OL, etc. We also should be aware of the sudden appearance at ORT in the past 5 games of the guy we were sure was a 7th overall pick bust. Instead, he is now performing at a level which has him ranked 4th in run blocking and in the top third overall among OTs. How nice is that?

Sure, I know that this may be the single worst Giants season ever in terms of W/L but I am feeling really bullish about the future and so I would hate to see us blink.

Cheers!

 

This is a lucid, rational and well-organized assessment which belies the emotional landfill surrounding what is best described as the latest dumpster 🔥 in North Jersey.

Despite no direct input regarding the question posed by the OP, we might conclude that Nabers is, and will continue to be, an integral cog in the Giants machine in the future. Would you not agree, sir?

Finally, as an observation, you've considered the situation carefully regarding replacement of leadership versus giving them opportunity to work through their trials and tribulations. It's a fair reminder to consider the case of haste as the old adage, at least as the elders in my early life taught me, that haste makes waste. If the last five or six seasons have not proven that adage correct, nearly nothing else will. The Giants considered canning Parcells after 1983 and a 3-12-1 record. Can anyone here imagine what might have happened to the team had Schnellenberger, coming off winning the NCAA title at Miami, coached the Giants (NOTE: he still probably wouldn't have if Parcells was fired)? Haste makes waste!

But turning back to the question posed by the OP, which is fair, that decision was part of the plan going into 2023 which was to give Jones his first bonafide weapon to work with. That's the choice the team made as far as their final straw move on whether or not Jones was going to work out. It didn't but Nabers has worked through his drops, several injuries and is on the cusp of breaking the rookie record for receptions. Given how limited the Giants' offense is right now, Nabers has shown himself to be a player where secondaries are basically ready to beat him into pieces. Yet, he comes back ready to attack and fight.

Normally, drafting a Receiver at #6 would be excessive. So far, I like what this kid has brought to the Giants and I hope he stays healthy and breaks the rookie record and goes on to have a great career with the Giants.

Peace!

 No one is saying that Nabors isn't an exceptional talent, he is and will, hopefully, continue to prove it. My thoughts were more on passing over some of the obviously more talented QBs that were out there especially now, that we are so desperate for a QB that we are ready to draft anyone who even appears like he could be a good QB.
Are any of these guys in this year's draft potentially a franchise QB? Sure we don't know, but the 2 most people have on the radar probably wouldn't have been drafted in the top 16 last year.

Again, my point is Nabors is great but IMHO it is easier to get a top WR than a top QB, so in retrospect, we may have passed on a franchise QB to draft a very good WR. At least that's the way I see it.

Quote from: LennG on December 21, 2024, 11:53:51 AMNo one is saying that Nabors isn't an exceptional talent, he is and will, hopefully, continue to prove it. My thoughts were more on passing over some of the obviously more talented QBs that were out there especially now, that we are so desperate for a QB that we are ready to draft anyone who even appears like he could be a good QB.
Are any of these guys in this year's draft potentially a franchise QB? Sure we don't know, but the 2 most people have on the radar probably wouldn't have been drafted in the top 16 last year.

Again, my point is Nabors is great but IMHO it is easier to get a top WR than a top QB, so in retrospect, we may have passed on a franchise QB to draft a very good WR. At least that's the way I see it.

You are right, Lenn. Receivers are much easier to find. I remember a certain undrafted free agent receiver from UMass who helped the Giants win a Super Bowl. Of course it helped that the Giants already had an established Super Bowl MVP QB when Victor Cruz came to the Giants. Without #10 Cruz's talent would be wasted. Time will tell but if the three QBs the Giants passed on turn out to be significantly better than either of the two they will draft this year, then yes, it was a major mistake.

It is easier to find a good WR than a good QB?