Big Blue Huddle

Maybe they had to prove to Mara that Jones was not the answer

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2024, 10:14:32 AMThat is a claim not supported by actual fact.  In fact, we saw on tape that prior to this season, Mara had literally given Schoen his blessing to move on from Jones. 

Rich,

I understand that none of us are in Mara's head and know his true intentions. However, we are all intelligent individuals and can put puzzle pieces together to form an educated picture. Prosecuting attorneys have built successful cases without a smoking gun.

I missed the part where Mara gave Schoen his blessing to move on from Jones.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2024, 10:15:02 AMSo we should ignore Mara giving Schoen his blessing to move on from Jones????

I am not saying it as a fact, just saying most of these decisions all exist under the umbrella of forcing the issue with Jones.

So why?

Mara also said, "he's happy with the contract he gave Jones and that he felt Jones played well for the team in 2022. He's also said that he wants to give Jones a chance with a better offensive line and some weapons around him."


I do not know, nor do you or anyone else...  people hear what they want to hear, especially the bvague comments when they add value based on their biases where none existed earlier.



But I will say if Scheon and Daboll made the decision to not franchise and sign Jones to the deal he got they should be let go. 

They risked their careers on Jones and it cost them, add them to the list of others.

Quote from: T200 on December 23, 2024, 10:17:58 AMRich,

I understand that none of us are in Mara's head and know his true intentions. However, we are all intelligent individuals and can put puzzle pieces together to form an educated picture. Prosecuting attorneys have built successful cases without a smoking gun.

I missed the part where Mara gave Schoen his blessing to move on from Jones.

You go down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole when you make claims without supporting facts.  In the case of Mara, there is nothing outside of wild, fact-free belief to support the idea that Mara forced Daniel Jones on any of his management teams.

As for Mara's blessing, here is Jordan confirming


https://x.com/JordanRaanan/status/1772318860332486987

https://x.com/JordanRaanan/status/1772318861875888440

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2024, 10:24:22 AMYou go down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole when you make claims without supporting facts.  In the case of Mara, there is nothing outside of wild, fact-free belief to support the idea that Mara forced Daniel Jones on any of his management teams.

As for Mara's blessing, here is Jordan confirming

You are more than free to categorize what I said as "wild, fact-free belief" but it's statements like that that derail fruitful conversations.

As to the "forced" part, no one suggested that. I have stated numerous times that it's more nuanced than that. Your links to Mara's comments (thanks for reminding me about those) support my point: Mara's statements have meaning, weight, and influence.

Quote from: T200 on December 23, 2024, 10:32:22 AMYou are more than free to categorize what I said as "wild, fact-free belief" but it's statements like that that derail fruitful conversations.

As to the "forced" part, no one suggested that. I have stated numerous times that it's more nuanced than that. Your links to Mara's comments (thanks for reminding me about those) support my point: Mara's statements have meaning, weight, and influence.

Tim,

Almost every GM has to deal with the owner's opinions.   If a GM can't operate unless the owner is completely silent, the GM has no business working in the NFL, in my opinion.   There are few jobs where a decision maker doesn't have to put themselves out there.  Hell, if all the GM is going to do is be a yes-man for the owner, why is he even employed?

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2024, 10:38:13 AMTim,

Almost every GM has to deal with the owner's opinions.   If a GM can't operate unless the owner is completely silent, the GM has no business working in the NFL, in my opinion.   There are few jobs where a decision maker doesn't have to put themselves out there.  Hell, if all the GM is going to do is be a yes-man for the owner, why is he even employed?

This is the difference in how we see things. You're primarily holding the GM responsible. I'm primarily holding the owner responsible.

Mara is a micro-manager. He plants his family in key positions to do his bidding and he makes influential comments that affect how the team is run.

Schoen understands that. He let Barkley walk despite the "not sleeping at night" comments by Mara. Schoen didn't need Mara to be "OK" with drafting a QB in last year's draft. Schoen knows what he needs to do and isn't afraid to push back on what Mara wants or doesn't want.

Hopefully he and Daboll are here next year to show they're making the right moves.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2024, 10:15:02 AMSo we should ignore Mara giving Schoen his blessing to move on from Jones????

At what juncture? After the 2021 season or entering last years draft or both?

Quote from: T200 on December 23, 2024, 10:51:46 AMThis is the difference in how we see things. You're primarily holding the GM responsible. I'm primarily holding the owner responsible.

Mara is a micro-manager. He plants his family in key positions to do his bidding and he makes influential comments that affect how the team is run.

Schoen understands that. He let Barkley walk despite the "not sleeping at night" comments by Mara. Schoen didn't need Mara to be "OK" with drafting a QB in last year's draft. Schoen knows what he needs to do and isn't afraid to push back on what Mara wants or doesn't want.

Hopefully he and Daboll are here next year to show they're making the right moves.

I see things in the organizational sense.  An owner hires a GM for their expertise.  They may voice their opinions, but it's incumbent on the expert/GM to make the right decisions and explain to the owner why they are the right decisions.  If they can't do that, they don't belong in the GM job.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2024, 11:41:15 AMI see things in the organizational sense.  An owner hires a GM for their expertise.  They may voice their opinions, but it's incumbent on the expert/GM to make the right decisions and explain to the GM why they are the right decisions.  If they can't do that, they don't belong in the GM job.

I agree with you. But we're talking about the hiring process. That's done now.

I'm talking about an assessment of the past three years and how we got here. Everyone's hands are dirty but it starts somewhere. The first domino didn't fall by itself. One small move, one seemingly harmless statement can have big, long-lasting effects.

I'm not absolving Schoen and Daboll for their parts in this mess. But if things were done differently by the owner, I think Schoen would have made different decisions.

Quote from: T200 on December 23, 2024, 11:47:42 AMI agree with you. But we're talking about the hiring process. That's done now.

I'm talking about an assessment of the past three years and how we got here. Everyone's hands are dirty but it starts somewhere. The first domino didn't fall by itself. One small move, one seemingly harmless statement can have big, long-lasting effects.

I'm not absolving Schoen and Daboll for their parts in this mess. But if things were done differently by the owner, I think Schoen would have made different decisions.

The only difference Mara could have made was not hiring Schoen.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2024, 11:49:29 AMThe only difference Mara could have made was not hiring Schoen.

OK

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2024, 10:15:02 AMSo we should ignore Mara giving Schoen his blessing to move on from Jones????

This shouldn't be that hard to understand. The situation after 2023 was wildly different from the situation after 2022.

After 2022, the Giants were drafting 25th and had just won a playoff game. Jones, even if truly mediocre, just had his best season and was the QB of a team who won a road playoff game. The Giants really didn't have many options. It was either keep Jones or bring in a bridge. Mara had the ammunition to at least heavily push the front office to come to a deal with Jones. They ended up negotiating a deal with a short term out, which shows how the front office wasn't exactly sold on Jones long term.

Then 2023 happens, Jones misses most of the year, the Giants look bad and are in position to, potentially, get his replacement. At that point, even Mara had to recognize that his golden boy probably wasn't the long term answer. And, quite frankly, the fact that members of the media felt the need to say that Mara gave them the green light to draft Jones' replacement would highly indicate that he has at least some say in who is the QB of his team.

As others have mentioned, it doesn't take a genius to put these puzzle pieces together to understand that bringing Jones back was probably more Mara than it was Schoen. We know that Mara loved Jones and we know that Schoen/Daboll weren't enamored with him given that they declined the 5th year option initially.

Quote from: jgrangers2 on December 23, 2024, 01:09:34 PMThis shouldn't be that hard to understand. The situation after 2023 was wildly different from the situation after 2022.

After 2022, the Giants were drafting 25th and had just won a playoff game. Jones, even if truly mediocre, just had his best season and was the QB of a team who won a road playoff game. The Giants really didn't have many options. It was either keep Jones or bring in a bridge. Mara had the ammunition to at least heavily push the front office to come to a deal with Jones. They ended up negotiating a deal with a short term out, which shows how the front office wasn't exactly sold on Jones long term.

Then 2023 happens, Jones misses most of the year, the Giants look bad and are in position to, potentially, get his replacement. At that point, even Mara had to recognize that his golden boy probably wasn't the long term answer. And, quite frankly, the fact that members of the media felt the need to say that Mara gave them the green light to draft Jones' replacement would highly indicate that he has at least some say in who is the QB of his team.

As others have mentioned, it doesn't take a genius to put these puzzle pieces together to understand that bringing Jones back was probably more Mara than it was Schoen. We know that Mara loved Jones and we know that Schoen/Daboll weren't enamored with him given that they declined the 5th year option initially.

Where is the evidence that shows Schoen and Daboll wanted to move on from Jones after 2022 but Mara forced them not to.  If you are like Tim and claim Mara's opinions were more important (or put so much pressure on Schoen that he changed his position on Jones) than presumably Daboll's (who I guess was like Schoen opposed to keeping Jones), then there is a major issue with the GM.

While the only thing we are really good at is after-the-fact second-guessing, it's starting to become clear that folks here with all the self-serving bitching, moaning, whining, and hating are no less losers than are their team's Managers, Coaches, or Players and, perhaps, even more so when well-intentioned constructive criticism gives way to "You suck, die in a hole" 

Cheers!