Big Blue Huddle

One thing that Joe Schoen does that has hurt the team is not trade away players who he doesn't plan on bringing back before the trade deadline in seasons that are clearly lost causes.

He held on to Barkley and McKinney and let both walk, and all the Giants got were meaningless wins that hurt their draft position and a 4th round comp pick.

This year, Schoen held on to Slayton and Ojulari (who was healthy at the time) rather than trading them away.  With the Giants likely to sign more than they will lose, there will be no comp picks for either.  So if Schoen doesn't bring either back, it will be the continuation of letting talent walk for no compensation.

I would be a mistake Schoen needs to learn from, but the only way this lesson really applies is if the Giants have another lost season in 2025.

https://nypost.com/2025/01/14/sports/giants-darius-slayton-azeez-ojulari-decisions-could-haunt-them/ 

This is something that was discussed around the trade deadline.

Neither of these guys held any value. I didn't see any reports of any market whatsoever for Slayton. And reports we heard were that Schoen had a very lowball offer for Ojulari.

Had he traded him for a 6th rounder, all we would have heard is "Schoen got fleeced."

Fans' perspectives on trades tends to be more from a fantasy or Madden perspective and often don't reflect the realities of actual trading in the real world NFL.

Even if trading Barkley and McKinney were the right decision (debatable at the time of that year's trade deadline), there is no comparison of the potential trade value of the two pairs of players.  Quite simply- one pair had value, the other does not. 

Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 15, 2025, 09:20:38 AMThis is something that was discussed around the trade deadline.

Neither of these guys held any value. I didn't see any reports of any market whatsoever for Slayton. And reports we heard were that Schoen had a very lowball offer for Ojulari.

Had he traded him for a 6th rounder, all we would have heard is "Schoen got fleeced."

Fans' perspectives on trades tends to be more from a fantasy or Madden perspective and often don't reflect the realities of actual trading in the real world NFL.

I don't know why I waste hours every week listening to people who actually worked in the NFL talk about football when I need to ask you, and you will explain to me the "realities" of the NFL.

A day 3 pick is better than no pick.  It's like lottery tickets: the more tickets you buy, the better your chances of winning.  Slayton likely wouldn't have gotten more than a conditional late-day three pick, but those extra picks can be packaged to move another pick up or simply give a team with tons of roster that needs more players to try and fill those holes.

Quote from: PSUBeirut on January 15, 2025, 09:24:30 AMEven if trading Barkley and McKinney were the right decision (debatable at the time of that year's trade deadline), there is no comparison of the potential trade value of the two pairs of players.  Quite simply- one pair had value, the other does not. 

No doubt Barkley and McKinney had more trade value, but it's a pattern.  When you see that you are out of contention and the trade deadline is approaching, a smart GM looks at the veterans on his roster.  If he doesn't see them in the team's long-term plans, he should make every effort to trade them away to get as much value as possible rather than just letting them walk away with nothing in return.  This habit has helped to lower the talent level on the team.

It's the Giant way, that has been going on for sometime. They always let players leave instead of trading.  DG traded Apple but that a rare case.

Mara didn't want to hit Barkley with a 2nd tag either and wanted him resigned so bad he was certainly part of the blame for Barkley not being traded 2 seasons in a row


2024  McKinney (I think they planned to sign until the FA Safety went through the roof, Green Bay played crazy money for a Mckinney on the hope of promise and it worked)
       
Barkley - Wanted to sign but on their terms

2023 Barkley and Love - Mishandled negotiations. Signed for equal money in Seattle

2022 Engram

2021 Tomlinson Bradberry

2018 Pugh Richberg

2011 Cofield

IMO
When the nasty side to the football business is needed, Mara likes to play nice

With Mara's recent comments about firing anyone he suspected of tanking, I'm guessing one of the reasons Schoen didn't trade McKinney (and especially Barkley) is because he valued his job.  There would have been no clearer indication that the Giants were intending to blow the season up and tank then trading away both of those two. 

Another point about Darius Slayton @Stringer Bell and @PSUBeirut

when a veteran who isn't in your plans continues to take snaps it blocks the development of younger players.  In other words the snaps given to Slayton would have been better served being given to Hyatt for developmental and evaluation purposes.

Quote from: PSUBeirut on January 15, 2025, 09:40:39 AMWith Mara's recent comments about firing anyone he suspected of tanking, I'm guessing one of the reasons Schoen didn't trade McKinney (and especially Barkley) is because he valued his job.  There would have been no clearer indication that the Giants were intending to blow the season up and tank then trading away both of those two. 

Trading away talent you don't plan on retaining is one of the few forms of "tanking" that is considered acceptable.  I would think even John Mara would have to agree.

If Mara took issue with losing Barkley, they could have combined trade efforts with efforts to secure a contract extension.  In other words, they could have opened talks with Barkley's agent with the idea that he was either extended or traded prior to the trade deadline.

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 15, 2025, 09:43:05 AMTrading away talent you don't plan on retaining is one of the few forms of "tanking" that is considered acceptable.  I would think even John Mara would have to agree.

If Mara took issue with losing Barkley, they could have combined trade efforts with efforts to secure a contract extension.  In other words, they could have opened talks with Barkley's agent with the idea that he was either extended or traded prior to the trade deadline.

Do you believe Mara would have been agreeable to this?  I sure don't.  That season would have been an absolute embarrassment- yes, even much worse than it already was.  While it's possible in the long run that may have been better as far as draft positioning, etc., I can't imagine Mara would not have blown the whole thing up.  Which is all I'm saying- I'm sure Joe Schoen values his job and trading those two away and tanking would have had a much higher chance of him getting canned.

Quote from: PSUBeirut on January 15, 2025, 09:47:54 AMDo you believe Mara would have been agreeable to this?  I sure don't.  That season would have been an absolute embarrassment- yes, even much worse than it already was.  While it's possible in the long run that may have been better as far as draft positioning, etc., I can't imagine Mara would not have blown the whole thing up.  Which is all I'm saying- I'm sure Joe Schoen values his job and trading those two away and tanking would have had a much higher chance of him getting canned.

If I was the GM I would believe I could sell it to John Mara, absolutely.   You simply explain to John we have a special talent in Barkley, and the worst-case scenario would be letting a special talent walk out of our building while getting nothing in return.  The season is a bust.  The best we can do is negotiate with Barkley to ensure he will be back next season, or we make every effort to ensure we get some return (in the form of draft capital) that can help the team offset the loss.  John is not some doddering old fool hell-bent on destroying his team.  Secondly, Mara lets his GMs make their own decisions.   So with that sales pitch, Mara would likely be on board, but there would be no way he would override the GM on this.

I guess we will agree to disagree. I certainly don't think trading away Mara and the entire fanbase's favorite player, a team captain, and then tanking hard the rest of the way would have led to Schoen keeping his job. Especially in light of Mara's recent explicit comments about firing anyone who he thought might be tanking. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 15, 2025, 09:31:40 AMI don't know why I waste hours every week listening to people who actually worked in the NFL talk about football when I need to ask you, and you will explain to me the "realities" of the NFL.

Such a petty response, and totally unnecessary. Particularly for an admin.

Didn't someone offer them a 5th for Slayton and they wanted more?

I'll try to see if I can find it, I may be mistaken.

If there is no intention to retain, I agree they should have been dealt to have more assets to build the roster. This is provided, that they actually got offers.

Quote from: babywhales on January 15, 2025, 09:37:54 AMIt's the Giant way, that has been going on for sometime. They always let players leave instead of trading.  DG traded Apple but that a rare case.

Mara didn't want to hit Barkley with a 2nd tag either and wanted him resigned so bad he was certainly part of the blame for Barkley not being traded 2 seasons in a row


2024  McKinney (I think they planned to sign until the FA Safety went through the roof, Green Bay played crazy money for a Mckinney on the hope of promise and it worked)
       
Barkley - Wanted to sign but on their terms

2023 Barkley and Love - Mishandled negotiations. Signed for equal money in Seattle

2022 Engram

2021 Tomlinson Bradberry

2018 Pugh Richberg

2011 Cofield

IMO
When the nasty side to the football business is needed, Mara likes to play nice

How did Engram play this season? I know last season he played well