Jon Gruden exposes Cam Newton's real weakness

[vette5573]

You gotta love Gruden. When Coach Coughlin decides to step off the sidelines, I would love to see a NY Giants cap on JG.

[vette5573]

http://www.bigblueview.com/2011/4/21/2125433/jerry-reese-pre-draft-press-conference-transcript

Q:  Less decision-making in the spread?



A:  All offenses are different.  Sometimes .....as far as protections - sometimes the offensive line just calls the protection.  Sometimes the quarterback calls the protection.  Sometimes they just have pre-determined protections.  So everything is different.  In this league the quarterback has to be able to throw the ball; he has to get the ball out quickly.  He has to make quick decisions under duress all of the time.  He has to take care of the football; those kinds of things.  But you are going to see some of these quarterbacks - the Cam Newtons of the world - you are going to see more of these type quarterbacks coming into the League, and I think they are going to be successful as they come into the League.

[Sect122Mike]

http://www.bigblueview.com/2011/4/21/2125433/jerry-reese-pre-draft-press-conference-transcript

Q:  Less decision-making in the spread?



A:  All offenses are different.  Sometimes .....as far as protections - sometimes the offensive line just calls the protection.  Sometimes the quarterback calls the protection.  Sometimes they just have pre-determined protections.  So everything is different.  In this league the quarterback has to be able to throw the ball; he has to get the ball out quickly.  He has to make quick decisions under duress all of the time.  He has to take care of the football; those kinds of things.  But you are going to see some of these quarterbacks - the Cam Newtons of the world - you are going to see more of these type quarterbacks coming into the League, and I think they are going to be successful as they come into the League.

The question before it was interesting too:

Q: RE: College quarterbacks and spread offense.

A: I think that is a hard position to evaluate more and more because most colleges now run the spread offense. Really it is a different animal than what we do in the NFL. I do think our league will start to evolve a little bit with some of that spread offense with some of these type players. So it is a hard position to evaluate in that respect. But you just have to see what the skill set is and what their mindset is. With quarterbacks - some guys can have a great skill set at quarterback, but they don't have the mindset that you would like for that position. The guy has to have the right mindset. He has to be the first guy to come in; he has to be the last guy to leave. But sometimes you can get a guy with a gigantic arm that can run and do those things but he doesn't have the mentality that you want your quarterback to have and the mindset you want - the mental makeup, I should say, instead of mind - the mental makeup that you would like for your quarterback to have. So each position - the puzzle you put together on them and things you like about them. Sometimes you can get a guy that you think is really kind of perfect - fits the puzzle perfectly - and then some guys can have part of the puzzle. But most of the time you don't get all of the pieces in the puzzle. And sometimes you get all of the pieces in the puzzle and he is still not what you really want.



I think what Reese is saying is similar to the point I was trying to make, but was far less articulate that Reese.  At the end of the day, I also agree with him that we will see more and more shotgun/pistol/spread/option quarterbacks coming into the nfl. I think they will be just as likely to be successful, and just as likely to fail, as those from a more traditional offense.  Its about seeing if the person has all the right pieces.  I still am not sold on Newton though.  With him, its the mindset I have a problem with.  I'm not sure he will be a good leader either. 

[MightyGiants]

Mike,

I think what Reese is saying supports what I have been saying.  The Spread offense is very different than NFL football and it makes it very difficult to evaluate people.  He also discussed the mental aspect of the game and that was the main point raised in this thread.

[vette5573]

You're both right. Are you happy now! Lol

No BP and the beat goes on........

Seriously though, you both make good points and did it well. Together somewhere lies the reality of the situation.

[zephirus]

You gotta love Gruden. When Coach Coughlin decides to step off the sidelines, I would love to see a NY Giants cap on JG.

I've heard this sentiment on the board alot and I couldn't disagree more.  Jon Gruden took Tony Dungy's team to a Superbowl and won, great.  What else did he do?  His team plummeted to 4-12 the following year and showed tremendous inconsistency during his tenure.  His total Tampa Bay record was 57-55, 2 games above .500.  He won 3 division championships in his 7 years, but one team was a 9-7 joke that won a bad division.

Additionally, as a personnel man he ran the Bucs into the ground.  He was never able to successfully develop a quarterback and he wasted money on over the hill (Tim Brown) or high priced free agents, while letting the core of his team like Warren Sapp and John Lynch leave. 

I think he is an average motivator/coach who fell into the right position at the right time and a terrible personnel man.

[NYSPORTS]

I enjoy Gruden in the booth yet don't want a celebrity coach running the Giants.  I get entertained by a team, not a coaches personality.  

[Sect122Mike]

Mike,

I think what Reese is saying supports what I have been saying.  The Spread offense is very different than NFL football and it makes it very difficult to evaluate people.  He also discussed the mental aspect of the game and that was the main point raised in this thread.

Whatever Rich.  If you want to claim victory because you think Reese agreed with you, feel free. 

Our discussion here started with my comment that I do not think the system a QB comes from, or the vocabulary he takes from that system, has any impact on whether he will succeed in the NFL or not.  That is all I have been saying.  Good NFL QBs can come from any system. 

I have always embraced the idea that  its harder to evaluate a spread/option QB.  But IMO its not all that much harder and I think most people make far more of it than it really is. But regardles of how hard it is to evaluate a guy, I frankly do not understand what the fact that it is harder to evaluate has on the point I raised.  Guys from either system can and will fail/succeed.  Thats its harder to evaluate a guy who has not dropped back from center just means the nfl guys have to do more work.  Once you do the evaluation, its all back to the guy though.  

I think what Reese said is that an individual might have certain skills and might not, but the individual's skills are all that matter, not where he came from.  If its harder on him and his scout team, so be it, but nothing I said differs from Reese.  I've always said that Cam Newton does not have the "mental aspect" to make it in the nfl, but that has nothing to do with where he went to school or his vocabulary of offensive terms.  Guys like Rodgers come from very simple offenses at Cal and translate well because they do have the "mental aspect" and guys like Newton do not because they lack it.  The school's system has nothing to do with eventual success.  

[bamagiantfan]

Since some continue to point out his flaws (real or perceived), I think I'll add that some are missing Newton's biggest asset - his confidence, perhaps even arrogance.

He and Nick Fairley changed what was essentially the same team that went 8-5 the year before to a team the won the National Championship. Newton was criticized when he arrived at Auburn for calling the team a bunch of losers. To be fair, he never actually said that. What he said was that they didn't have the "swagger they needed to win in the SEC." They didn't approach the game like it was theirs to lose. He changed that locker room by single handedly taking over a game against Clemson, and following it up with a similar performance against South Carolina the next week. He continued to do that throughout the season in games against LSU, Alabama, and finally Oregon. They basically had the same season as the year before, only this time with Cam Newton. He was the difference between being 8-5  and 14-0. It wasn't just his play. His leadership was (is) a big deal.

[Sect122Mike]

Since some continue to point out his flaws (real or perceived), I think I'll add that some are missing Newton's biggest asset - his confidence, perhaps even arrogance.

He and Nick Fairley changed what was essentially the same team that went 8-5 the year before to a team the won the National Championship. Newton was criticized when he arrived at Auburn for calling the team a bunch of losers. To be fair, he never actually said that. What he said was that they didn't have the "swagger they needed to win in the SEC." They didn't approach the game like it was theirs to lose. He changed that locker room by single handedly taking over a game against Clemson, and following it up with a similar performance against South Carolina the next week. He continued to do that throughout the season in games against LSU, Alabama, and finally Oregon. They basically had the same season as the year before, only this time with Cam Newton. He was the difference between being 8-5  and 14-0. It wasn't just his play. His leadership was (is) a big deal.

That is an excellent point.  Cam Newton is a simply amazing player.  He talked the talk and walked the walk.  He is arrogant, and deservedly so. 

That said, I think a biiger difference between Auburn in 2009 and 2010 is the same difference as that between Oregon in 2009 and 2010, the head coach.  In 2009, both Chip Kelly and Gene Chizik (along with OC Gus Malzahn) were first hear head coaches.  It took a little bit for their offensive systems to fall into place. Both are unlike anything else in college football and both took a very long time to teach to the coaches, let alone the players. 

I can not in any way limit the impact Cam Newton had on all of college ball last season. He was as dominating a force as I have ever seen.  But Chizik and Malzahn deserve a fair amount of the credit. Without Cam, they would not have beaten LSU or bama (or the Ducks for that matter) but without Chizik and Malzahn, Newton would not have had all those holes and winded defenses chasing him down.   

[Philosophers]

I'm making this number up, but if there are 10 things a college QB needs to transition to a successful NFL QB, it seems to me that if they already have as many as possible, their chances of success go way up.  If playing in the spread or playing with himself is something that becomes another thing for an NFL team to have to coach out of the player and correct, then it just seems like one more thing that can go wrong and thus make it harder to succeed.

To me, the guy who can just go back and sling the ball without having to think about proper footwork, where he's holding the football, his arm angle, whether he's made his progressions correctly, what the WILL is going to do, is going to be the one who succeeds.  The more clutter in their brain, the more they will not play fast and loose.  JMHO.

[bamagiantfan]

Well said philosophers. Do you remember that guy about 10 years ago who couldn't throw a tight spiral, lost the starting job at Michigan, had just an average arm, and had awful mobility and footwork? 

[vette5573]

I'm guessing that there will be a lot of teams that will be reaching for second and third round draft players in the first round this year and some trading up to do it. Then there is Young and Kolb out there that are going to get some nice dollars too.

[MightyGiants]

Here is an interesting follow up from former NFL defensive tackle Chris Hovan, who played for the Bucs during Gruden

[Sect122Mike]

More on Newton:

http://www.cbssports.com/#!/nfl/story/14991408/panthers-passing-on-newton-or-just-blowing-smoke

If so, it's understandable: Newton had one season of success at the Division 1-A level. Granted, it was an extraordinary season, with undefeated Auburn winning the national championship, but let the record show that he threw 280 passes at the major-college level (two years at Florida; one at Auburn), compared to Blaine Gabbert's 933, Tim Tebow's 995 and Sam Bradford's 893.

Let the record also show that he ran 285 times -- or more than he threw. In Newton's Heisman Trophy-winning season he averaged 20 passes a game and 18.9 rushes per contest, and that won't ... can't ... continue in the pros, where he will face bigger, stronger and faster defensive linemen.

"I'll tell you what scares me and what should scare Carolina," said one coach Sunday evening, "and that's that (Newton) never really developed past the 'JC' (junior college) level in terms of football knowledge. At Auburn, they let him do what he wanted to do. And that's because, athletically, the guy is a Hall of Famer. But in terms of what he knows about the game and how he plays it he's still at a junior-college level."

I really don't think he will go first.  Its just too big a risk.  I started this draft season thinking the Vikings would take him.  Its amazing how he climbed.