NFT--Zimmerman and Martin

[T200]

I know this case seems complicated at first look but my view, based on my read of the Stand Your Ground Law should not prevent Zimmerman from being found guilty.

1) Zimmerman pursued this kid even though a Police Dispatcher told him to back off.

2) Zimmerman was also told by the same dispatcher the Police would be there in 2 minutes or so.

3) Zimmerman caused the confrontation to occur.  As the lead investigating Detective said "this was completely avoidable".

4) Zimmerman is in no way connected with Law Enforcement.

5) Neighborhood Watch people were mandated not to carry weapons.


Also, I know many people want to make this a Racial situation, but I think it is a non issue based on the facts.  Legally Zimmeman did not have the legal right to pursue this kid.

And just what, exactly, was Trayvon Martin doing that looked suspicious to Zimmerman? Was he checking for unlocked cars? Was he peeping in house windows? Was he walking down the middle of the street?

Had Zimmerman stayed in the car like he was advised to do, we'd never know his name.

[Derach]

It's scary to think that a rent-a-cop in any state in the US has capital punishment privledges for any crime. 

If you can lock away someone for the better part of a decade for being involved in an automobile accident with a blood alcohol level of .08, I would think being sober and intentionally shooting someone should carry a more severe punishment. 

I don't think the fact that Martin may or may not have been struggling with the provocateur of the attack should weigh in on the defense of Zimm.  If I start a fight with you, you then proceed to kick my ass, and I shoot you, I'm still at fault. 

[MightyGiants]

  If I start a fight with you, you then proceed to kick my ass, and I shoot you, I'm still at fault.

That's a major point, you don't bring a gun to a fist fight

[JimboWHO]

It's scary to think that a rent-a-cop in any state in the US has capital punishment privledges for any crime. 

If you can lock away someone for the better part of a decade for being involved in an automobile accident with a blood alcohol level of .08, I would think being sober and intentionally shooting someone should carry a more severe punishment. 

I don't think the fact that Martin may or may not have been struggling with the provocateur of the attack should weigh in on the defense of Zimm.  If I start a fight with you, you then proceed to kick my ass, and I shoot you, I'm still at fault.

"IF I START A FIGHT WITH YOU"   Operative word being "IF".  Many of you seem to know exactly what happened but how about trying this:

I believe that we do know that Martin was on the phone with his girlfriend when he spyed Zimmerman following him.  This brings about the possibility that Martin felt threatened, lost Zimmerman as his girlfriend said, and jumped Zimmerman.  In this case, who started the fight?  Not the guy many of you think.  The obvious point is we don't really know.

There are times when a very unique set of circumstances come together to cause an tragic death - this might just be one of those times.  It certainly looks like it.  There is a reason why so many legal experts have used the words "weak" and "flimsy" when describing the indictment and the state's case.

Of course, there are people to whom it may be demonstrated, that Zimmerman shot Martin out of self defense because he was in fact jumped, getting the snot kicked out of him and his head bashed into the ground and they will still not accept the shooting.  All these people need to do, IMHO, is put themselves or their kids in Zimmerman's place.

If the facts and evidence shows otherwise and Zimmerman shot Martin not out of self defense I say put him away forever.

JJM

[vette5573]

Can someone outline the facts in this case from the beginning? This all took place in a gated community? Did either of these men belong in that community? Why was Martin being followed by Z?

[jimmyz]

Can someone outline the facts in this case from the beginning? This all took place in a gated community? Did either of these men belong in that community? Why was Martin being followed by Z?

Zimmerman is a member of that community's neighborhood watch program.  There had been reported incidents of burglary there.

Zimmerman seems like a guy with rent-a-cop syndrome.

[JimboWHO]

When talking about the unique set of circumstances above I should have added that it may very well be that Martin didn't deserve to die and Zimmerman doesn't belong in jail.

Both could be true.


JJM

[MightyGiants]

Ed,

Here's the timeline.  Both men were entitled to be in the community.  Zimmerman followed and confronted Martin because Zimmerman ignored the guidelines and instructions he had been given by the people who set of the community watch and the police on the phone.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-09/trayvon-martin-timeline-florida-shooting/54129274/1

Jim,

An innocent unarmed man was killed by a deliberate gunshot.   As such someone belongs in jail.

[55 reasons]

IMHO Zimmermanm stalked this young man and then murdered him

[JimboWHO]

Ed,

Here's the timeline.  Both men were entitled to be in the community.  Zimmerman followed and confronted Martin because Zimmerman ignored the guidelines and instructions he had been given by the people who set of the community watch and the police on the phone.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-09/trayvon-martin-timeline-florida-shooting/54129274/1

Jim,

An innocent unarmed man was killed by a deliberate gunshot.   As such someone belongs in jail.

You mean to say if you're gonna kill me I can't kill you first?  I can't defend myself even with lethal force If I feel my life is threatened?

The law says otherwise and we are a nation of laws.


JJM

[MightyGiants]

Ed,

Here's the timeline.  Both men were entitled to be in the community.  Zimmerman followed and confronted Martin because Zimmerman ignored the guidelines and instructions he had been given by the people who set of the community watch and the police on the phone.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-09/trayvon-martin-timeline-florida-shooting/54129274/1

Jim,

An innocent unarmed man was killed by a deliberate gunshot.   As such someone belongs in jail.

You mean to say if you're gonna kill me I can't kill you first?  I can't defend myself even with lethal force If I feel my life is threatened?

The law says otherwise and we are a nation of laws.


JJM

Jim,

In 26 years or tending to people that got into fist fights, I have not seen or has my squad tended to someone who was killed.   Fist fights are almost never fatal especially for the bigger guy (Zimmerman outweighed Martin by quite a bit) and there is no martial arts trained fighters.  So again the man that shot and killed an innocent unarmed man belongs in jail.

[55 reasons]

I reside in the state of Florida......there are major problems with the "stand your ground" law.
A few years ago a man shot and killed a kid whose only bad act was to try the flaming poop in a bag and ring the doorbell prank..

[JimboWHO]

Ed,

Here's the timeline.  Both men were entitled to be in the community.  Zimmerman followed and confronted Martin because Zimmerman ignored the guidelines and instructions he had been given by the people who set of the community watch and the police on the phone.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-09/trayvon-martin-timeline-florida-shooting/54129274/1

Jim,

An innocent unarmed man was killed by a deliberate gunshot.   As such someone belongs in jail.

You mean to say if you're gonna kill me I can't kill you first?  I can't defend myself even with lethal force If I feel my life is threatened?

The law says otherwise and we are a nation of laws.


JJM

Jim,

In 26 years or tending to people that got into fist fights, I have not seen or has my squad tended to someone who was killed.   Fist fights are almost never fatal especially for the bigger guy (Zimmerman outweighed Martin by quite a bit) and there is no martial arts trained fighters.  So again the man that shot and killed an innocent unarmed man belongs in jail.

Mighty

I respect your experience and training in the medical area but I'm suggesting your wisdom stops short of being a legal expert.  The people in that field police, DA's office, etc (the one investigator notwithstanding) did not see anything that resembled "man kills innocent unarmed man (and) belongs in jail."

I will hold open the possibility that the eyewitnesses were wrong, Zimmerman staged his injuries, Zimmerman lied through his teeth with his version of events, his doctor is covering for him, all of that.  But with all respect, you need all or most of these elements to be vindicated in your assertion that Martin was unjustifiably shot.


JJM

[MightyGiants]

Jim,

I have to disagree.  The reality is we have to believe rather far fetched and unlikely version of events to even begin to consider letting Zimmerman off from the homicide he committed.   We know for a fact that Zimmerman stalked Martin.  We have no indication that Martin jumped him as you claim. 

As for the law this comes right out of it:

A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity, and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

1)  It's reasonable to assert Zimmerman initiated the confrontation so he was "not attacked" as required by law

2)  As I said a much larger man engaged in a fist fight does not have a reasonable expectation of death or serious bodily harm.

[LennG]

None of us were there, so no one knows what really happened. we are all subjecting our beliefs into what we want to think happened.

Just being a guy from the streets myself, I can see a scenario something like this happening.

Zimmerman, who thinks he is a junior G-Man, loves the idea of being on neighborhood patrol. see a Black man walking in a neighborhood where there had been some robberies. Zimmerman is probably a racist at heart, gets out of his car and confronts Martin. Martin, not shy about things, probably tells him to 'F--K off and mind his own business. This enrages Zimmerman who again thinks he is the town police, maybe grabs Martin as he is trying to walk away. Martin they takes a swing at Zimmerman, knocking him down and jumps on top of him. Zimmerman is scared, takes out his gun and bang, martin is dead.
According to my friend, an attorney, legally, Zimmerman did nothing wrong. He is allowed to carry a concealed weapon in Florida and he abided by the 'Stand your ground' law, also in Florida. We, in other states, look at this with a completely different mentality, but how can they try Zimmerman for murder if he was being assaulted and felt his life in danger. Regardless of ==who started the confrontation, who should have stayed in their car, who is a racist, who thinks they are junior G-Men???
Sure Zimmerman was wrong to confront Martin, but in HIS mind he felt he was trying to help the community. I really don't think he was out, riding around just looking for a Black man to shoot. In his state of mind, he was a wannabe cop, trying to help a community, beset by some robberies.
He sees a Black man, walking along, and if my understand is correct, Martin had no ID and no key to any house in the community, so how does Zimmerman know he is even from this particular area??.
I believe Zimmerman's only crime is that he took his so called job, way too seriously. Yes, he should have stayed in his car and waited for the police. But he didn't. Should he have confronted Martin, maybe yes, maybe no. But what happened at that confrontation no one will ever know. martin cannot speak and no one will truly believe Zimmerman.
When I first heard the story, I thought Zimmerman was being made a scapegoat for another of Al Sharpton's yearly rants. They I heard more info and seriously doubted Zimmerman's story, but after the new evidence has come out, including pictures of him from ABC news, and the eyewitness accounts that have come out and even Martin's own Father said it wasn't Martin's cry for help that were on the tape but probably Zimmerman's, my conclusion was Zimmerman isn't the brightest bulb in the box, but he has no business even being arrested and no way committed murder, at least not by Florida laws.