Question for LEnn

[babywhales]

2 outs man on third

Hit to SS

Fields ground ball, throws to first base.  First baseman catches the ball.

Ump calls third out.
Defensive Players leave field.

offensive coach tells guy on third to run home.

Opposing coach appeals play at first.
Ump reverses out at first and declares runner on third
safe, run counts . 




Can the runner on third count even though the third out was declared

[LennG]

I am away and have no access to my trusty rule book, but from memory, if the defensive players leave the field you CANNOT appeal anything. The umpire was wrong to allow the appeal. What I was not sure about is if it is only for the infielders or the entire defense. But you said that the defense had left the field which would negate any right to any sort of appeal.

The out should have remained as an out. If you were allowed to protest that call, you would win.

And, just out of curiosity, why did the umpire change his call at 1st base? Is this a 2 man game or 1 man?

[babywhales]

I am away and have no access to my trusty rule book, but from memory, if the defensive players leave the field you CANNOT appeal anything. The umpire was wrong to allow the appeal. What I was not sure about is if it is only for the infielders or the entire defense. But you said that the defense had left the field which would negate any right to any sort of appeal.

The out should have remained as an out. If you were allowed to protest that call, you would win.

And, just out of curiosity, why did the umpire change his call at 1st base? Is this a 2 man game or 1 man?

2 man game

[LennG]

Just from the mechanics part, the base umpire was probably in what we call the 'C' position, some where between 2nd and 3rd base, in the infield. That would be the proper place with just a man on 3rd base. With 2 out he might have moved ovr to the 'B' position, between 2nd and 1st base, but in lower league games, the 'C' position is correct.

For the play to happen at 1st, he called the runner out, then safe on appeal, I simply cannot imagine why he would change a call unless he asked the plate umpire for help (like maybe the throw pulled gthe1st baseman off the bag). But that would b automatic before the defense could lave the field. I simply cannot fathom this umpire making an out call and then changing it to safe, on appeal, on his own. Just cannot happen unless he was a rookie and the coach was really brow beating himnd he figured he missed ghe call and tried to make amends. As I said, cannot happen, at any level.

[babywhales]

Correct, the field ump was in the C position.  The throw pulled the firstbaseman off. Tthe man on third was running home as an easy ground ball was fielded and thrown to first. It was debated if he ever actually completed his run to first.  The thrown ball pulled the first baseman off the bag. The field ump called the batter/runner out, thus the third out.

It was in the top of the last inning. Over a 100 fans were screaming and yelling. While this was going on the defense was running off the field.  The first base couch started yelling to the thirdbase coach that the 1st baseman was off the bag.

At this point the defensive team was off the field. 

The first base coach asked the homeplate ump and then quickly asked the field ump to check with the home plate ump if he had a better angle.

They discussed it and called in another person, they then came back and ruled the batter/runner was safe at first and awarded the man on third homeplate.



If the play was called the third out on the field, was awarding the runner on 3rd, homeplate the correct call?

[LennG]

Just got home and have been rethinking this problem.

What I said about the defense leaving the field only applies to id the defense had to make an appeal. They cannot make an appeal on, say a runner leaving early, once the defense has left the field.

But that is not your case. That simply cannot apply as they could rush off the field to prevent an appeal, which simply cannot happen.

So, I have asked a couple of my fellow umpires about this and I am waiting for a reply. But, in the meantime, I did go over the MLB rulebook and this is something that I came up with, that may settle everything.

Rule 8.02(a) to 8.02(c)

Rule 8.02(a) Comment. (Rule 9.02(a) Comment): Players
leaving their position in the field or on base, or managers or
coaches leaving the bench or coaches box, to argue on BALLS
AND STRIKES will not be permitted. They should be warned
if they start for the plate to protest the call. If they continue,
they will be ejected from the game.
(b) If there is reasonable doubt that any umpire

[LennG]

Just got an email from one of my interpreters and he said this, is as few a words as possible.
"Runner safe, score the run and we go home"

So there it is. My first thoughts were a bit off, but on replaying it in my mind, I realized that what I wrote originally wouldn't pertain to what you say.

Just a note. Myself, in a normal game, if I were the base umpire, and I wasn't sure if the 1st baseman held the bag, would point to the plate umpire right away and he would make the call. That is the proper mechanics. The base umpire looks foolish having the coaches yelling at him to ask your partner. Then, if I made the call, I had to think I was right, and I would not ask for help. If wrong I would eat it.
That said, as I just said, in a normal, every day game, that would be the circumstances. However, say it was a playoff game, a championship game, you do want to make sure you get the calls correct, and pride be damned. If everyone in the place saw I missed an obvious call because I may have been out of position, I would ask for help. Sometimes you just think I got it right, but looking and hearing from everyone else around, you might think, 'Ut oh' maybe I was wrong, and I would ask my partner.
You have to understand umpires also. In high school, I have a regular partner who I work with all the time. In a normal everyday game, if I made a call, and the coach asked for an appeal, I know my partner will back me up, so I ask him, just to make the coaches happy. But, as I said, if it were a playoff game, semi final, championship, we want all calls to be correct, feelings don't matter then. If, in asking for help, I  was overruled and had to change a call, it wouldn't bother me in the least.
I hope you can understand the thinking process here?

[coggs]

Why would the interpreter tell you to score the run?  Once the umpire called out, thus the 3rd out, all action stops.  If the umpires then agree to change the call, nobody should be able to advance in the meantime except for runners who are between bases being allowed to take the next base.  In this case, it sounds like after the call was made, the player kept running. He was not at risk as why would the defense care about getting a 4th out?  If the runner was already on his way home and there was not going to be a play on him if the batter/runner was called safe, then he scores.  Otherwise, he should be at 3rd.  The rule you quoted gives the umpire authority to place runners.

As far as mechanics, agreed.  I was always told, if you need help ask BEFORE making a call.  I have worked with a few guys over the years who would refuse to back you up if you asked after making the call.  It had been drilled into our group that you do not ask in most situations after making the call.  So, in that situation, I call him out. Then ask for help?  They would overturn you everytime just to teach you to stop doing so.  One situation where it didn't happen.  Runner on first and second, less than 2 outs.  I was in C position.  Ground ball hit between first baseman and 2nd baseman, closer to 2nd.  As ball passed runner, it came very close to hitting him, but I could not tell for sure and it didn't have any weird trajectory after the apparent contact.  Coach of the team in the field screamed it hit him, I immediately put my hand up to acknowledge, but didn't say anything.  Just yelled, "PLAY IT! PLAY IT!"  After the play, I asked the plate man if he saw anything and he admitted he could tell either.  Play stood.  Yes, plate guy was one of the guys who would overturn you if you asked for help after making a call. 

[LennG]

Remembering the play, since there were 2 out and the runners are going, if the batter/runner was declared safe at first, the run would have to count. It isn't an award of bases, but a base hit/error, why wouldn't the runner from 3rd score?

And, according to the rule that I posted (one which I never really knew about, except in theory) the umpires are allowed to change a call and basically 'do the right thing' when a call is wrong.

If the umpires consult after a play and change a call
that had been made, then they have the authority to take all
steps that they may deem necessary, in their discretion, to eliminate
the results and consequences of the earlier call that they
are reversing, including placing runners where they think those
runners would have been after the play,

[coggs]

Remembering the play, since there were 2 out and the runners are going, if the batter/runner was declared safe at first, the run would have to count. It isn't an award of bases, but a base hit/error, why wouldn't the runner from 3rd score?

And, according to the rule that I posted (one which I never really knew about, except in theory) the umpires are allowed to change a call and basically 'do the right thing' when a call is wrong.

Sorry, misread it.  Thought runner was originally on 2nd, went to 3rd on play and then when coach told him to keep going, went home.