Israeli/Palestinian conflict

[MightyGiants]

I found this rather despressing


https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-airstrikes-wrecked-gaza-only-coronavirus-testing-lab-reports-2021-5?utm_source=reddit.com

[Jolly Blue Giant]

Sometimes I feel like there is an effort (not by people here on this board) to portray Muslims as primitive and in a less than positive light.  JBG's comments show how little so many people in our Country know about them and how assumptions tend to paint them in a less than flattering light

Here are the prayer times for Jerusalem

May 18   3:06 AM   4:40 AM   11:36 AM   3:16 PM   6:31 PM   7:59 PM


https://www.edarabia.com/prayer-times-jerusalem/

For more information, you might want to read this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomy_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world#:~:text=The%20first%20major%20Muslim%20work,Ptolemaic%20concepts%20into%20Islamic%20sciences.

Again, I try to shed some light on this subject. The original intent of the call to prayer was to remind worshipers that it's time to come to prayer. It was made a rule when there was no way for the common man to know what time it was. The entire prayer was not "called" like it is done today nor was there 15,000 watt amplifiers to blast it many miles away. The original intent was simply a reminder to men that it was time to go to prayer.

The nuances are less important than the grievances of non-religious and modern people forced to sit in on other peoples' prayers. I don't think you would particularly appreciate it in your neighborhood if evangelicals prayed on loudspeakers that forced you to hear their prayers five times a day. In fact, I know you would get sick of it and most likely complain. It has nothing to do with the Islamic religion as much as it has to do with noise pollution in a modern society in which not everyone is of the same religion or even has any use for religion. It is quite impressive that Israel allows mosques in their cities and country to blast their prayers over loud speakers. I don't think it is too far fetched to think it would have been a decent gesture by the Al Aqsa mosque to refrain from blasting their prayers while the leader of their country gave a short speech nearby. But that is just me. Those outside of Israel who hate Bibi probably have no problem with it and probably think Israel deserved to be ruthlessly attacked.

It's not a slight on Islam or what they practice, but pointing out that their "calls to prayer" is a nuisance to those who do not share their beliefs, even though those same people have put up with it as a courtesy for years. It is certainly not worthy of going to war and killing dozens of people, but that is what is happening thanks to Hamas using it as an excuse to bombard cities in Israel. The haters of Israel (Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.) do not need a reason to try and destroy Israel, they just need an excuse to start it and subsequently claim to the world that they started it. And if you haven't noticed, when Israel is attacked, they will retaliate with extreme force. For Israel, it's a matter of survival.

[MightyGiants]

Again, I try to shed some light on this subject.

JBG,

Are you asserting I was wrong when I corrected you both about the fact that there are specific times for the call to prayers and that Muslims are more than capable of identifying the point in the solar cycle for a given day?

I am not sure I need to have light "shed on me". 

I mean you basically accused the Muslims of deliberately scheduling their daily prayer for right in the middle of Netanyahu's speech when the truth was he deliberately scheduled his speech for the middle of one of the calls for prayer and then as Philosopher pointed out

It started literally with the cutting of an electrical cord so the loudspeaker for Muslim prayer prior to Ramadan could not be broadcast over Netanyahu's speech at the nearby Western Wall.  Police just walked into Al Aksa Mosque and cut it.

Seems to me like Netanyahu engaged in a calculated deliberate act of provocation.    Provocation for a conflict that seems to serve his desire (at least I would think it was his desire) to distract from his scandals

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu#:~:text=Police%20recommended%20indictments%20against%20Netanyahu,portfolios%20other%20than%20prime%20minister.

[Jolly Blue Giant]

JBG,

Are you asserting I was wrong when I corrected you both about the fact that there are specific times for the call to prayers and that Muslims are more than capable of identifying the point in the solar cycle for a given day?

I am not sure I need to have light "shed on me". 

I conceded that you are right that there are exact times. What I said that probably ruffled your feathers is that modern society which is made up of both religious and non-religious people should not be subjected to someone else's religious prayers blasted through loud speakers that drown out your television or a meeting you are sitting in. A lot has changed since the early 600's AD when there was no electricity, no amplifiers, no loud speakers, and virtually everyone in a community shared exact same religious beliefs. It's pretty lucky for Muslims in a non-Islamic countries to share their prayers with everyone simply because they say it's how they practice their religion. It's a sticky subject and like I said, I doubt you'd want to hear the prayers of evangelicals blasted into your home five times a day because 1400 years ago, an evangelical said there'd be a call to prayer five times a day.

I mean you basically accused the Muslims of deliberately scheduling their daily prayer for right in the middle of Netanyahu's speech when the truth was he deliberately scheduled his speech for the middle of one of the calls for prayer and then as Philosopher pointed out

Seems to me like Netanyahu engaged in a calculated deliberate act of provocation.    Provocation for a conflict that seems to serve his desire (at least I would think it was his desire) to distract from his scandals

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu#:~:text=Police%20recommended%20indictments%20against%20Netanyahu,portfolios%20other%20than%20prime%20minister.

I don't know if the speech was "deliberately scheduled" or not during the mosque's call to prayer, but I am sure that the overwhelmingly anti-Semitic press from around the world has said such as they jump to conclusions and use any excuse to incite hatred towards Jews. I have no doubt the mosque was asked to not interfere with the prime minister's speech. Whether or not you agree or I agree is irrelevant. The entire point is that it (simple as it was) was all it took for an anxious terrorist group looking for an excuse to start launching more than 3000 missiles into another country's civilian population. And now shocked that they fought back. I have a hard time believing that even you believe the attacks on Israel were justified. But who knows, there are an awful lot of people who simply hate Jews, especially among the hard left in this country and among American academia. Makes no sense to me, but such is the world we live in.

[MightyGiants]

I conceded that you are right that there are exact times. What I said that probably ruffled your feathers is that modern society which is made up of both religious and non-religious people should not be subjected to someone else's religious prayers blasted through loud speakers that drown out your television or a meeting you are sitting in. A lot has changed since the early 600's AD when there was no electricity, no amplifiers, no loud speakers, and virtually everyone in a community shared exact same religious beliefs. It's pretty lucky for Muslims in a non-Islamic countries to share their prayers with everyone simply because they say it's how they practice their religion. It's a sticky subject and like I said, I doubt you'd want to hear the prayers of evangelicals blasted into your home five times a day because 1400 years ago, an evangelical said there'd be a call to prayer five times a day.

I don't know if the speech was "deliberately scheduled" or not during the mosque's call to prayer, but I am sure that the overwhelmingly anti-Semitic press from around the world has said such as they jump to conclusions and use any excuse to incite hatred towards Jews. I have no doubt the mosque was asked to not interfere with the prime minister's speech. Whether or not you agree or I agree is irrelevant. The entire point is that it (simple as it was) was all it took for an anxious terrorist group looking for an excuse to start launching more than 3000 missiles into another country's civilian population. And now shocked that they fought back. I have a hard time believing that even you believe the attacks on Israel were justified. But who knows, there are an awful lot of people who simply hate Jews, especially among the hard left in this country and among American academia. Makes no sense to me, but such is the world we live in.

JBG,

I have seen just as much hatred for Muslims/Arabs as I have seen hatred for Jews.   I find it odd that you only address one side of the hatred thing.      Why do you pretend that only one side is the subject of hatred, bigotry, and prejudice?

[umassgrad]

I worked in Egypt for 5 years and in Morocco for 4. I always enjoyed the call to prayer and never found it intrusive.
It was kind of like hearing the church bells ringing in my hometown. They would ring every hour and were loud but I enjoyed those as well.

[Jolly Blue Giant]

JBG,

I have seen just as much hatred for Muslims/Arabs as I have seen hatred for Jews.   I find it odd that you only address one side of the hatred thing.      Why do you pretend that only one side is the subject of hatred, bigotry, and prejudice?

I've not witnessed any hatred for Muslims. I suppose it is out there, but I've never witnessed it. I have witnessed college campuses standing up for Muslims and our government (both sides of the aisle) standing up for Muslims; yet have witnessed many campuses condemning Jews and have heard our own politicians like Rep. Ilhan Omar openly trash Israel. Believe or not, anti-Semitism is very, very high - not just in this country, but all over the world. As far as I am aware, there is no religion or constitution that requires its adherents to hate and kill Muslims. However, there is both a religion (more than 2 billion strong) and constitutions of countries that require the total annihilation of Jews. It's a sad fact. And tiny Israel is surrounded by Islamic countries, many who have sworn that their solemn duty is to destroy Israel and of course, the Qur'an and "holy'" writings command adherents of the religion to kill Jews (Sahih al-Bukhari 2926; Book 56, Hadith 139 The Hour will not be established until you fight the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

I know of no religion in which it's writings are required to kill Muslims. They may be subjected to bigotry the way many minorities in this country are, but there is no religious command to kill them. Anti-Semitism has been around for a long time, long before Hitler made it popular. If you study American history and the KKK, blacks were not the only target of violence and hangings, they likewise also went after Jews. An ugly part of our past.

Take a look at what Israel is up against. The red spot in the middle of the sea of green is Israel. The green have religious zealots who believe Jews must be killed and that Israel does not have the right to exist. Kind of makes you understand the paranoia of Jews in Israel since the holocaust.

[MightyGiants]

I've not witnessed any hatred for Muslims.

seriously?

[Jolly Blue Giant]

seriously?

Maybe I live in a sheltered world, but everyone I've been around insists on treating Muslims fairly. I'm sure there are rednecks throughout the U.S. who hate Muslims, but I don't hang out with those types. They tend to hate other groups as well - not people I want to be around. I do witness a lot of campuses on TV and in other forms of media where it is a regular thing to boldly condemn Israel while loudly supporting Palestinians. Jew-bashing on campuses in California is almost a sport anymore.

Regardless, I don't hate anyone. Life is too short. I don't hang out with people who hate. Life is too short. I do get involved with the right for Israel to exist and that seems to make a lot of people - especially those on the political left - pretty angry. I think they should spend some time in Israel and discover for themselves what's going on rather than listen to bigoted politicians and biased media trying to sway opinions of people who see Israel as nothing more a distant land that is the cause of trouble in the middle east, yet have never been there. But for whatever reason (probably political) feel they must get involved in picking sides and trashing the side they decide to oppose, be it a knee jerk reaction or politically swayed by professional propagandists.

I don't think most people who have an opinion (even a strong opinion) on matters in Israel are even aware of the large Arab/Muslim population that live in Israel and love Israel and hate the conflict. Unless people are directly effected by the situation there, they should not take strong stands unless they actually spend time there - both in Israel and the West Bank (Gaza is a little freaky). Most people are not even aware that the Gaza Strip was part of Egypt right up until 1967 after the 6-Day War. Israel didn't want to take Gaza as part of Israel, but Egypt wouldn't take it back so Israel gave Gaza its total sovereignty. It's all very complicated and people need to understand that those who live in Gaza have no say whatsoever what the Hamas government does and like I tried to point out, Hamas takes all it's orders from Iran and their religious heads. Hamas makes no decisions on their own - they are puppets of the Iranian regime. The more you understand Iran and their tentacles in controlling terrorism around the world, the wiser you become.

[MightyGiants]

JBG,

Just so you can say you have witnessed hatred for Arabs/Muslims


[html]

Israeli settler mob removing a Palestinian man from his car and brutally attacking him.

They keep punching him right in the face even when he

[bldevil]

If you ever fall into the black hole of trying to unwind a play-by-play analysis of "who started it" when it comes to a conflict involving Israel, you will find yourself on a journey in time going past the crusades and into pre-Roman history.  Unless you plan to get a Ph.D. in history, there's no way to comprehend all the back-and-forth violence on this issue that's been pretty much non-stop for a century.

[Jolly Blue Giant]

If you ever fall into the black hole of trying to unwind a play-by-play analysis of "who started it" when it comes to a conflict involving Israel, you will find yourself on a journey in time going past the crusades and into pre-Roman history.  Unless you plan to get a Ph.D. in history, there's no way to comprehend all the back-and-forth violence on this issue that's been pretty much non-stop for a century.

Good point. It actually started about  2150 BCE when Abraham bestowed his blessings on his son Isaac (patriarch of the Jewish Israelites) instead of Ishmael (patriarch of the Arabs). The Jews and the Arabs are cousins and they make the Hatfields and McCoys look like child's play in comparison.

[umassgrad]

If you ever fall into the black hole of trying to unwind a play-by-play analysis of "who started it" when it comes to a conflict involving Israel, you will find yourself on a journey in time going past the crusades and into pre-Roman history.  Unless you plan to get a Ph.D. in history, there's no way to comprehend all the back-and-forth violence on this issue that's been pretty much non-stop for a century.

Nothing can be done to solve a problem that has gone on for centuries, don't even try to figure it out as the Palestinians are slowly wiped off the face of the earth.
This type of behavior is not something new. Thousands of Jewish refugees fleeing the holocaust were turned away from many countries because it was politically unpopular and a line on admitting refugees had to be drawn somewhere. Both reasonable arguments to a very complex problem back then but it didn't help those who had to return to Nazi Germany to be murdered.

[MightyGiants]

Good point. It actually started about  2150 BCE when Abraham bestowed his blessings on his son Isaac (patriarch of the Jewish Israelites) instead of Ishmael (patriarch of the Arabs). The Jews and the Arabs are cousins and they make the Hatfields and McCoys look like child's play in comparison.

I often find the citation to the Bible for land claims to be less than ideal.  Imagine you get a knock on your door.  You answer and the person on the other side say, "get out of my house and off my land".   You say, "How is this yours?  My family has lived on this home and on this land for generations?".   They say, "well you're wrong, it is written that I own this land".   Your response, "written where?".   They respond "right here MY bible"


Factually and legally speaking no one knows who wrote the bible, who changed the bible, and what is actually true in the bible.  Factually large numbers of humans don't even believe the bible is the exact word of divine beings. So how can it be the definitive document to settle a land dispute?

[katkavage]

Both Bibi and Hamas want to cling to power. The way to do that is to keep dividing. We saw that here not too long ago. Both are deterrents to peace. I feel bad for the citizens of both sides. They are innocent bystanders in a power grab.